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on this episode of skeptico

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a rebroadcast of an interview i recently

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did with two brainiac tree huggers from

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vermont

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oh i hope you love these guys as much as

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i do because you're gonna hear a lot

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more of them on skeptico

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we don't need much of an introduction on

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this one stick around for my chat with

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dr rob williams and brandon zeleno

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from plan v tv

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welcome to plan v tv the show about

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vermont independence i'm dr rob williams

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the publisher of vermont independent dot

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net and with us today in studio and

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virtually this is so exciting we have

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brandon zolino

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in studio and all the way from sunny san

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diego we have alex sakuras who is the

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host and

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founder of the incredibly popular and

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controversial skeptico podcast and the

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author of

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this book why science is wrong

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about almost

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everything

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uh welcome to the show alex

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thanks rob it's it's uh super exciting

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to be here i was just saying i had a

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great email exchange with

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brandon i'm psyched for that and then i

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went to your site and we have all these

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connections with wim hof and breathing

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and so it's super exciting and i love

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the vibe you guys are putting out it

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just couldn't be better so so many

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things to talk about oh so many things

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and so let us over the next hour alex

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and brandon we will conspire together

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uh this conspiracy we call conversation

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and of course the latin root of

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conspiracy conspire means to breathe

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together so we're gonna do this in

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studio we're gonna do this virtually

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it's so exciting and i just have to say

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before we get to brandon's opening salvo

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i love the fact that rupert sheldrake

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the maverick british biologist wrote the

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forward to your book alex i have

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enjoyed shell drake's work for years his

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theory of morphic resonance just blows

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my mind uh and i i just

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couldn't be couldn't be more pleased

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that uh you and sheldrake have been in

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communication he seems like a righteous

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dude

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well we shall talk about

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rupert

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coming up on his 80th birthday here and

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uh

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a true a true giant but if you read

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the forward that he wrote we had to have

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we had to well i know and i've heard you

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talk about navigating your forward with

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rupert and yes i'm sure we'll touch on

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that but um let's just jump right in why

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science is wrong about almost everything

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skeptico

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um

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brandon start us off okay alex

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uh in february you celebrated uh the

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15-year anniversary for your

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groundbreaking podcast skeptico in which

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you explore the tipping points of

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science and spirituality with leading

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researchers scientists and philosophers

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your exploration runs the gamut of

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topics from near-death experience

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research remote viewing psychics and

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mediums to neuroscience quantum physics

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christianity ufos yoga and conspiracy

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but at the end of the day you nearly

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always return to the place where it all

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happens consciousness

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along the way you have arrived at

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provocative realizations regarding some

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of the most deeply entrenched paradigms

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in science it's your paradigm busting

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background that we'd like to focus on

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today namely the methods or principles

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that you employ that have helped guide

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your journey and avoid cognitive

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dissonance along the way if you could

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begin by telling us a little bit about

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what drives you in this project how it

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began and what a few of the high points

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have been uh then maybe we can go from

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there and transition into discerning and

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scrutinizing information as you were

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recently discussing with richard cox

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wow

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beautiful i love it and

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i could

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talk for hours on that but there's so

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many points there there are near and

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dear to my heart because i think anyone

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who

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you know enters into this journey of

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like

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again i i really have a vibe with you

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guys i love what you're doing i mean

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you're taking responsibility

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for

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first you're taking personal

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responsibility for what you know

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what you know you know what you believe

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to be true you're saying okay i am

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responsible for that it's like a little

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thing that tweaks me is when people

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you'll engage with them and then they'll

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get to a point and they'll go oh that's

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above my pay grade

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if it's above your pay grade you are

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surrendering your intellectual

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sovereignty to someone who's going to

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come along and tell you just what the

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heck it is and you got to do it you got

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to take the jab you got to wear the mask

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you got to uh stand up straight you got

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to not burn fuel whatever it is eat your

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broccoli

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[Laughter]

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yeah a little a little reference to uh

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snow piercer there

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what a movie huh what a movie

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yeah incredible so

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when when you give up that

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in my mind you are giving up that

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intellectual sovereignty and it's really

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tough for people to grapple with that

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because they go well what do you mean

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i'm not a

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virologist how would i ever know that

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it's you don't have to be a virologist

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you just have to be committed to

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following the data wherever it leads to

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a point where you feel solid in what you

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know and never getting to that point of

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saying well that's above my pay grade i

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can't handle that that's exactly what

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they want you to do because then they

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are the ultimate authority what do you

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guys think about that

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go ahead bro

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i i really appreciate what you just said

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and to you know to

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brandon's question you're giving us a

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couple of tools right away alex one is

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to take responsibility for your own

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intellectual journey and sovereignty

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right and number two as i've heard you

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say many times on skeptico follow the

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data wherever it leads

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i would just say that i i try and sort

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of um align my

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uh journey with three tenets one is

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um curiosity

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a second would be compassion

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and the third would be courage

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and along and all of that is wrapped in

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a healthy dose of what i try and

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practice as humility

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not pretending for a moment and this is

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hard in the academy where i tend to hang

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my hat from time to time it's hard in

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the academy to admit that you don't know

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something but

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nothing could be more important than

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than acknowledging the importance of

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humility and that opens up the doors

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for all of these other qualities brandon

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what how would you respond

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yeah i mean i i think i've always tried

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to

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wrong

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fundamentally about what it is that i

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believe

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it's important to be able to take a

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position on something you can't make it

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through life without taking positions on

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things

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um

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but at the same time like you never know

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if the position that you've taken is the

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wrong one and you have you have to be

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open to

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accepting that you could be wrong

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and i think for me

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um i think the question boils down to

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it's like when we find ourselves

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operating within a false paradigm

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it seems that often we're either unaware

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of the falsehood of a crucial

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presupposition upon which the paradigm

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is built

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we don't think to question it or more

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damningly we're unwilling to question it

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um alex do you actively re-examine or

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maintain an openness to question like

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presuppositions that guide your analysis

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[Music]

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yes but i would kind of add one other

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thing that i think is key there

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and it's hard for a lot of uh

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a lot of folks a lot of normies hate

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that term but we all know what it means

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to really wrap their head around is on

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one level you don't we all understand

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that we might be deceived fights we go

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to the car dealership to get the new

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truck and it's like

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we know the deal we know that

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you know all the things we know that but

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when we step into these other arenas a

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lot of times we kind of let our guard

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down in a way that doesn't really

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makes sense we've just been kind of

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conditioned to kind of let our guard

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down so another way that i i really

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resonated with the first part of what i

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hate resonate why did i say that but

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i really like the first part of what you

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say brent said and i always relate this

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story because it's just like such a

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key moment for me that drives me

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and it was i was talking to dr jeffrey

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long who has compiled this

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huge and very very important database of

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near-death experiences and he's um

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he's a doctor he's a cancer doctor in

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louisiana and he deals with death and

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dying all the time and

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he's also a scientist and a researcher

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and he's trained as a scientific

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researcher anyways he had this colleague

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if you will the guy who was opposed to

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his work but said hey let me would you

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let me in the spirit of openness in the

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spirit of science have access to your

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data so that i can test my theory

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and jeff long being an open-minded

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curious and you know humble guy which he

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is said yes

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so the guy goes and he runs the thing

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and he comes back and he publishes a

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paper and he says ah all this near-death

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experience science stuff it's bunk

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it can all be explained by ram intrusion

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you know like the rem sleep kind of

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thing

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but here's the moment here's the moment

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that i think we're all

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kind of we'll relate to is jeff reads

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his

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paper and he goes oh my god he's right

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and he has that sinking feeling in his

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stomach like

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i'm an imposter i didn't even know i'm

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an imposter but i have an imposter i've

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been out you know like pumping all this

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stuff and it just

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it isn't true

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and then he dug deeper and the more he

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dug deeper well he didn't do this right

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no more he didn't do this right he

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didn't do that's right well of course

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that isn't true

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so

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to me

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that is the moment where i want to be

281
00:10:33,509 --> 00:10:31,519
that is the moment where the the inquiry

282
00:10:36,790 --> 00:10:33,519
and the spirituality

283
00:10:40,150 --> 00:10:36,800
meet because inquiry to perpetuate doubt

284
00:10:43,110 --> 00:10:40,160
doubt is a spiritual place doubt is not

285
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being doubt is humility doubt is the

286
00:10:48,710 --> 00:10:46,480
ultimate humility so that's the place

287
00:10:51,990 --> 00:10:48,720
that that i think to me

288
00:10:53,430 --> 00:10:52,000
answers the the question brandon uh what

289
00:10:55,269 --> 00:10:53,440
do you um

290
00:10:57,750 --> 00:10:55,279
you guys maybe have heard me that star i

291
00:11:00,870 --> 00:10:57,760
mean do you hit that moment do you guys

292
00:11:02,550 --> 00:11:00,880
relate to that moment of really having

293
00:11:04,230 --> 00:11:02,560
to doubt and then what do you do with

294
00:11:06,150 --> 00:11:04,240
that moment do you do you kind of head

295
00:11:07,829 --> 00:11:06,160
into the fire or do you back up and find

296
00:11:09,590 --> 00:11:07,839
a way to defend your beliefs and say no

297
00:11:11,190 --> 00:11:09,600
i can't be wrong well i think the key

298
00:11:12,870 --> 00:11:11,200
there is you point out that he went in

299
00:11:15,670 --> 00:11:12,880
and he started digging and actually

300
00:11:18,470 --> 00:11:15,680
looking at the details and the

301
00:11:20,630 --> 00:11:18,480
methodology that was used to back up the

302
00:11:22,550 --> 00:11:20,640
the propositions that made the the grand

303
00:11:23,750 --> 00:11:22,560
claim that he was wrong

304
00:11:24,790 --> 00:11:23,760
because the devil is always in the

305
00:11:26,630 --> 00:11:24,800
details

306
00:11:28,069 --> 00:11:26,640
particularly

307
00:11:30,230 --> 00:11:28,079
when we start talking about what

308
00:11:32,630 --> 00:11:30,240
fundamentals are what fundamentalist

309
00:11:34,790 --> 00:11:32,640
assumptions are being made at

310
00:11:36,870 --> 00:11:34,800
at an epistemological level you know

311
00:11:38,550 --> 00:11:36,880
down to or even like at an ontological

312
00:11:40,949 --> 00:11:38,560
level down to like what comprises the

313
00:11:43,590 --> 00:11:40,959
being of the world you know the

314
00:11:45,190 --> 00:11:43,600
fundamental presuppositions that you

315
00:11:47,110 --> 00:11:45,200
seem to be making a lot is that

316
00:11:49,590 --> 00:11:47,120
consciousness is fundamental not the

317
00:11:51,350 --> 00:11:49,600
maturity not the material paradigm and

318
00:11:53,350 --> 00:11:51,360
so a lot of western science seems to be

319
00:11:54,629 --> 00:11:53,360
in this material paradigm

320
00:11:56,949 --> 00:11:54,639
and when you're in that material

321
00:11:58,629 --> 00:11:56,959
paradigm that kind of defines

322
00:12:01,110 --> 00:11:58,639
everything that you can build on top of

323
00:12:04,629 --> 00:12:01,120
it and you can create

324
00:12:06,710 --> 00:12:04,639
an entire system of ideology and belief

325
00:12:08,069 --> 00:12:06,720
and it can all work internally can all

326
00:12:10,470 --> 00:12:08,079
be internally

327
00:12:13,190 --> 00:12:10,480
consistent and right and the math can

328
00:12:16,310 --> 00:12:13,200
all work but it can all be built on one

329
00:12:19,190 --> 00:12:16,320
fundamentally wrong assumption

330
00:12:21,030 --> 00:12:19,200
or misunderstanding

331
00:12:23,269 --> 00:12:21,040
i love that and let me just jump in for

332
00:12:25,430 --> 00:12:23,279
folks who are like uh epistemology

333
00:12:27,430 --> 00:12:25,440
what's that um

334
00:12:29,670 --> 00:12:27,440
it's a term that we use a lot in in

335
00:12:31,030 --> 00:12:29,680
thinking about what we know and and

336
00:12:33,750 --> 00:12:31,040
epistemol the way i think about

337
00:12:36,710 --> 00:12:33,760
epistemology is simply this epistemology

338
00:12:40,470 --> 00:12:36,720
is the study of the nature and origins

339
00:12:42,710 --> 00:12:40,480
of knowledge how do we know what we know

340
00:12:46,069 --> 00:12:42,720
or to put it another way you know what

341
00:12:48,550 --> 00:12:46,079
is truthful and i just want to read

342
00:12:51,110 --> 00:12:48,560
piggybacking on brandon's uh

343
00:12:53,509 --> 00:12:51,120
observations here i i think this is the

344
00:12:56,550 --> 00:12:53,519
nub alex of your book if i had to pick

345
00:12:58,389 --> 00:12:56,560
one nub uh why science is wrong about

346
00:13:00,629 --> 00:12:58,399
almost everything at the very end of the

347
00:13:03,829 --> 00:13:00,639
book you write

348
00:13:05,829 --> 00:13:03,839
science is wrong about almost everything

349
00:13:08,790 --> 00:13:05,839
because science is married to this

350
00:13:09,829 --> 00:13:08,800
absurd idea that you and i don't really

351
00:13:12,310 --> 00:13:09,839
exist

352
00:13:14,310 --> 00:13:12,320
it says we're just an illusion created

353
00:13:17,110 --> 00:13:14,320
by this meaningless electrochemical

354
00:13:19,910 --> 00:13:17,120
reaction going on inside our brain the

355
00:13:21,910 --> 00:13:19,920
denial of our consciousness as anything

356
00:13:24,310 --> 00:13:21,920
more than the product of a biological

357
00:13:26,629 --> 00:13:24,320
robot turns out to be a big deal not

358
00:13:28,470 --> 00:13:26,639
just philosophically but

359
00:13:30,710 --> 00:13:28,480
experimentally if we can't account for

360
00:13:33,190 --> 00:13:30,720
the effects consciousness might have in

361
00:13:36,230 --> 00:13:33,200
our experiments if we can't measure

362
00:13:37,509 --> 00:13:36,240
consciousness then we can't really

363
00:13:39,350 --> 00:13:37,519
measure

364
00:13:41,269 --> 00:13:39,360
anything

365
00:13:42,870 --> 00:13:41,279
and i was i was skeptical of your book's

366
00:13:45,030 --> 00:13:42,880
title at first alex because i hadn't

367
00:13:47,750 --> 00:13:45,040
read it but by the time i got to that

368
00:13:49,670 --> 00:13:47,760
moment i was like ah i see what he's up

369
00:13:50,870 --> 00:13:49,680
to here and this

370
00:13:52,710 --> 00:13:50,880
makes

371
00:13:55,110 --> 00:13:52,720
and i like the word resonate this

372
00:13:57,030 --> 00:13:55,120
resonates with me right it it literally

373
00:13:58,470 --> 00:13:57,040
sort of informs

374
00:14:01,189 --> 00:13:58,480
um my

375
00:14:03,750 --> 00:14:01,199
limited understandings of

376
00:14:05,590 --> 00:14:03,760
uh epistemologically speaking of how we

377
00:14:07,509 --> 00:14:05,600
know what we know and not only that but

378
00:14:08,790 --> 00:14:07,519
why we're here like how we came to be

379
00:14:10,389 --> 00:14:08,800
and what is our you know sort of these

380
00:14:11,990 --> 00:14:10,399
grand philosophical questions that we

381
00:14:13,670 --> 00:14:12,000
all struggle with

382
00:14:15,269 --> 00:14:13,680
what are we just threw a lot on the

383
00:14:18,069 --> 00:14:15,279
table there

384
00:14:20,150 --> 00:14:18,079
awesome it's all really great stuff and

385
00:14:21,990 --> 00:14:20,160
it it kind of marries that's what both

386
00:14:24,230 --> 00:14:22,000
of you said together you know that kind

387
00:14:25,350 --> 00:14:24,240
of quote is there

388
00:14:27,829 --> 00:14:25,360
do we

389
00:14:30,470 --> 00:14:27,839
benefit by always looking for that kind

390
00:14:32,870 --> 00:14:30,480
of fundamental root assumption

391
00:14:35,030 --> 00:14:32,880
and i would agree that that is you know

392
00:14:36,790 --> 00:14:35,040
it's always looking for that litmus test

393
00:14:39,590 --> 00:14:36,800
that is the beauty of science science

394
00:14:41,910 --> 00:14:39,600
pushes us that way whereas sometimes

395
00:14:44,069 --> 00:14:41,920
philosophy especially the way it's

396
00:14:47,030 --> 00:14:44,079
practiced today can kind of pull pulse

397
00:14:49,110 --> 00:14:47,040
away from that pull us away from

398
00:14:51,030 --> 00:14:49,120
kind of driving the

399
00:14:52,870 --> 00:14:51,040
driving the flag you know that's how i

400
00:14:54,949 --> 00:14:52,880
say planning the flag and saying okay

401
00:14:56,710 --> 00:14:54,959
this is it this is the best i have right

402
00:14:59,430 --> 00:14:56,720
now one of the things that is appealing

403
00:15:01,750 --> 00:14:59,440
to science is we can experimentally

404
00:15:03,430 --> 00:15:01,760
plant the flag and say this is what we

405
00:15:06,150 --> 00:15:03,440
think is real i'll tell you another

406
00:15:07,910 --> 00:15:06,160
story uh rupert sheldrick's story if you

407
00:15:09,509 --> 00:15:07,920
will because when i first

408
00:15:11,509 --> 00:15:09,519
got to know rupert and i got to know

409
00:15:13,590 --> 00:15:11,519
rupert right at the beginning uh

410
00:15:15,350 --> 00:15:13,600
fortunately when i was doing this and he

411
00:15:17,430 --> 00:15:15,360
was doing this experiment that people

412
00:15:19,590 --> 00:15:17,440
might have heard about dogs that know

413
00:15:22,389 --> 00:15:19,600
when their owners are coming home

414
00:15:24,310 --> 00:15:22,399
so he is a biologist cambridge trained

415
00:15:26,550 --> 00:15:24,320
published in nature all the right

416
00:15:27,949 --> 00:15:26,560
credentials and he gets interested in

417
00:15:29,990 --> 00:15:27,959
these things like you said

418
00:15:31,430 --> 00:15:30,000
morphomorphogenetic residents and stuff

419
00:15:34,790 --> 00:15:31,440
so he's like hey

420
00:15:37,269 --> 00:15:34,800
are these accounts of people being

421
00:15:38,870 --> 00:15:37,279
connected in some non-ordinary way with

422
00:15:40,230 --> 00:15:38,880
their dog are they true so he starts

423
00:15:42,150 --> 00:15:40,240
collecting all these stories people

424
00:15:44,310 --> 00:15:42,160
start sending them all yeah my dog does

425
00:15:46,389 --> 00:15:44,320
that yeah my dog does that

426
00:15:48,629 --> 00:15:46,399
and this one jumps out because this

427
00:15:50,550 --> 00:15:48,639
woman was willing to kind of really go

428
00:15:52,629 --> 00:15:50,560
the extra mile to have the dog tested

429
00:15:55,350 --> 00:15:52,639
the dog's name was jt

430
00:15:58,310 --> 00:15:55,360
and jt was really good at knowing when

431
00:16:00,949 --> 00:15:58,320
the owner is coming home so rupert

432
00:16:03,110 --> 00:16:00,959
this is you know kind of

433
00:16:05,990 --> 00:16:03,120
maybe rob you'd give this to like a

434
00:16:08,710 --> 00:16:06,000
freshman level kind of experiment it's

435
00:16:11,350 --> 00:16:08,720
not a difficult test to do to test

436
00:16:14,150 --> 00:16:11,360
whether the phenomenon that is claimed

437
00:16:16,710 --> 00:16:14,160
is true you put a camera on the dog you

438
00:16:19,189 --> 00:16:16,720
put a camera on the owner and then you

439
00:16:21,269 --> 00:16:19,199
send the owner out and you vary the

440
00:16:23,749 --> 00:16:21,279
times you vary the times from

441
00:16:25,990 --> 00:16:23,759
very you know five minutes to sometimes

442
00:16:26,870 --> 00:16:26,000
they went as far as like overnight

443
00:16:27,670 --> 00:16:26,880
you know

444
00:16:29,829 --> 00:16:27,680
and

445
00:16:31,910 --> 00:16:29,839
you do it in a taxi cab so they can't

446
00:16:33,269 --> 00:16:31,920
detect the sound and

447
00:16:36,150 --> 00:16:33,279
you like all the things that people

448
00:16:37,430 --> 00:16:36,160
would object to rupert sheldrick figured

449
00:16:39,590 --> 00:16:37,440
out in the first five minutes like

450
00:16:42,150 --> 00:16:39,600
anyone would it's not that hard

451
00:16:44,310 --> 00:16:42,160
he ran 200 trials

452
00:16:47,590 --> 00:16:44,320
and again hey the statistics on this

453
00:16:50,150 --> 00:16:47,600
experiment the methodology for con the

454
00:16:51,910 --> 00:16:50,160
controls and all the measures are again

455
00:16:54,310 --> 00:16:51,920
relatively simple right

456
00:16:56,389 --> 00:16:54,320
since you have this variability in the

457
00:16:59,269 --> 00:16:56,399
length of the time that the owner is

458
00:17:01,189 --> 00:16:59,279
gone all you have to do is look at how

459
00:17:05,110 --> 00:17:01,199
long the dog spends

460
00:17:07,429 --> 00:17:05,120
at the window waiting versus not waiting

461
00:17:09,390 --> 00:17:07,439
and then you have your number right he

462
00:17:12,069 --> 00:17:09,400
does 200 trials he gets an

463
00:17:14,949 --> 00:17:12,079
overwhelmingly statistically significant

464
00:17:17,669 --> 00:17:14,959
result jt seems to know when there when

465
00:17:20,549 --> 00:17:17,679
his owner is coming home if it's

466
00:17:22,870 --> 00:17:20,559
only 30 minutes well at 10 minutes

467
00:17:25,590 --> 00:17:22,880
before she's there he's there if it's

468
00:17:27,350 --> 00:17:25,600
two hours it's not until an hour 50 that

469
00:17:30,390 --> 00:17:27,360
he goes to the door and he hangs out

470
00:17:33,510 --> 00:17:30,400
there and he's waiting

471
00:17:35,830 --> 00:17:33,520
so again this is this ties into some of

472
00:17:37,590 --> 00:17:35,840
the other points so he publishes his

473
00:17:39,350 --> 00:17:37,600
work and he immediately gets a lot of

474
00:17:41,510 --> 00:17:39,360
pushback this is probably

475
00:17:43,990 --> 00:17:41,520
uh 10 maybe even 15 years ago i don't

476
00:17:45,750 --> 00:17:44,000
know but there was this whole skeptical

477
00:17:47,190 --> 00:17:45,760
thing was more you know james randy

478
00:17:50,470 --> 00:17:47,200
million dollar challenge all that

479
00:17:53,830 --> 00:17:50,480
nonsense total psi up psyop cia nonsense

480
00:17:56,789 --> 00:17:53,840
really is another topic for another time

481
00:17:59,470 --> 00:17:56,799
but he has this guy in the uk probably

482
00:18:02,310 --> 00:17:59,480
the most public

483
00:18:05,270 --> 00:18:02,320
psychologist on all the media and stuff

484
00:18:07,750 --> 00:18:05,280
like that it'd be like i don't know

485
00:18:10,310 --> 00:18:07,760
doc not dr phil but yeah even like a

486
00:18:11,990 --> 00:18:10,320
neil degrasse tyson only for psychology

487
00:18:14,710 --> 00:18:12,000
kind of thing and his name is richard

488
00:18:16,630 --> 00:18:14,720
weissman he says oh wow this is just

489
00:18:20,070 --> 00:18:16,640
baloney you know i'll

490
00:18:22,070 --> 00:18:20,080
i'll show it so again he calls up the

491
00:18:25,029 --> 00:18:22,080
scientist the real scientist rupert

492
00:18:27,270 --> 00:18:25,039
who's done 200 trials carefully done and

493
00:18:29,590 --> 00:18:27,280
he says well you know in the spirit of

494
00:18:32,070 --> 00:18:29,600
science why don't you let me run the

495
00:18:33,270 --> 00:18:32,080
experiment remember because okay because

496
00:18:35,430 --> 00:18:33,280
matter of fact i'll leave the whole

497
00:18:37,190 --> 00:18:35,440
setup right here i'll leave the video

498
00:18:38,789 --> 00:18:37,200
cameras where they are i'll do all the

499
00:18:41,669 --> 00:18:38,799
thing

500
00:18:43,590 --> 00:18:41,679
wiseman comes in he runs four trials he

501
00:18:45,510 --> 00:18:43,600
changes the protocol to say that the

502
00:18:47,510 --> 00:18:45,520
only thing that counts is a weight of

503
00:18:49,110 --> 00:18:47,520
three minutes or more which is just kind

504
00:18:51,270 --> 00:18:49,120
of a random thing that he pulled out of

505
00:18:53,029 --> 00:18:51,280
the air and then without consulting

506
00:18:55,510 --> 00:18:53,039
sheldrick at all he goes and publishes

507
00:18:57,430 --> 00:18:55,520
his work makes a big

508
00:18:59,430 --> 00:18:57,440
public deal out of the fact that he's

509
00:19:01,430 --> 00:18:59,440
debunked this and this you all know this

510
00:19:03,750 --> 00:19:01,440
couldn't possibly be true there can be

511
00:19:05,510 --> 00:19:03,760
no communication outside of our senses

512
00:19:07,590 --> 00:19:05,520
and besides you don't even consciousness

513
00:19:09,990 --> 00:19:07,600
isn't even real so this kind of extended

514
00:19:12,150 --> 00:19:10,000
consciousness stuff can't possibly be

515
00:19:14,470 --> 00:19:12,160
real right

516
00:19:17,270 --> 00:19:14,480
so i had both these guys on the show a

517
00:19:18,549 --> 00:19:17,280
long time ago it was hard to get wiseman

518
00:19:20,710 --> 00:19:18,559
had to kind of

519
00:19:21,909 --> 00:19:20,720
coerce him to get out but we got him on

520
00:19:24,150 --> 00:19:21,919
and he really

521
00:19:26,070 --> 00:19:24,160
had to kind of cave in a way he

522
00:19:27,990 --> 00:19:26,080
backpedaled he never admitted that he

523
00:19:31,190 --> 00:19:28,000
was wrong he just admitted that

524
00:19:33,029 --> 00:19:31,200
sheldrick's data had to go forward

525
00:19:34,630 --> 00:19:33,039
and i guess the reason that i that

526
00:19:36,710 --> 00:19:34,640
touches on i think a couple of the

527
00:19:39,909 --> 00:19:36,720
points that we talked about one it's

528
00:19:43,669 --> 00:19:39,919
nice to get some closure that only

529
00:19:46,310 --> 00:19:43,679
science can do you know like uh to to

530
00:19:49,110 --> 00:19:46,320
brandon's point you know this kind of

531
00:19:50,950 --> 00:19:49,120
cuts through a lot of the bs where you

532
00:19:52,950 --> 00:19:50,960
say okay let me make sure i got this

533
00:19:54,710 --> 00:19:52,960
right this guy ran 200 trials and this

534
00:19:56,710 --> 00:19:54,720
and this happened and he can show me all

535
00:19:59,190 --> 00:19:56,720
the trials and wow even videotaping the

536
00:20:01,430 --> 00:19:59,200
dog really does that and then this other

537
00:20:03,590 --> 00:20:01,440
guy just ran four trials and the dog

538
00:20:05,669 --> 00:20:03,600
actually if you use the

539
00:20:07,590 --> 00:20:05,679
the protocol that he was supposed to use

540
00:20:09,430 --> 00:20:07,600
the dog does the same as in rupert's

541
00:20:10,549 --> 00:20:09,440
data but he changed it

542
00:20:11,510 --> 00:20:10,559
so then

543
00:20:15,430 --> 00:20:11,520
so

544
00:20:18,470 --> 00:20:15,440
you get the finality of the experiment

545
00:20:20,070 --> 00:20:18,480
but then you get the deception and

546
00:20:21,590 --> 00:20:20,080
that's what i think sends us in a

547
00:20:24,710 --> 00:20:21,600
different direction that

548
00:20:26,149 --> 00:20:24,720
that isn't incorporated in anything

549
00:20:29,590 --> 00:20:26,159
we've talked about

550
00:20:32,710 --> 00:20:29,600
they are trying to mess with us they

551
00:20:35,590 --> 00:20:32,720
have another agenda they are putting

552
00:20:37,830 --> 00:20:35,600
forth that agenda in a way that is

553
00:20:39,110 --> 00:20:37,840
intended to be

554
00:20:43,669 --> 00:20:39,120
secret

555
00:20:46,149 --> 00:20:43,679
hard-to-figure route contradictory

556
00:20:51,350 --> 00:20:46,159
intel co-pro

557
00:20:54,710 --> 00:20:53,350
so on the one hand

558
00:20:57,830 --> 00:20:54,720
you could say that like some of this is

559
00:21:00,870 --> 00:20:57,840
like deliberate like conspiratorial

560
00:21:03,029 --> 00:21:00,880
um like machinations and deliberately

561
00:21:05,990 --> 00:21:03,039
framing experiments to return a desired

562
00:21:07,990 --> 00:21:06,000
result deliberately subverting the

563
00:21:09,270 --> 00:21:08,000
methodologies to return a desired result

564
00:21:11,029 --> 00:21:09,280
or deliberately

565
00:21:13,750 --> 00:21:11,039
playing around with control groups which

566
00:21:16,470 --> 00:21:13,760
is done a lot with vaccine science using

567
00:21:19,350 --> 00:21:16,480
um like aluminum adjuvants as opposed to

568
00:21:20,870 --> 00:21:19,360
using um like an inert placebo and then

569
00:21:21,990 --> 00:21:20,880
like claiming that it returns a result

570
00:21:22,789 --> 00:21:22,000
that shows like a null effect or

571
00:21:24,870 --> 00:21:22,799
whatever

572
00:21:26,630 --> 00:21:24,880
um

573
00:21:30,070 --> 00:21:26,640
but on the other hand

574
00:21:32,710 --> 00:21:30,080
is it possible that a lot of this is

575
00:21:35,510 --> 00:21:32,720
just a result of people being stuck

576
00:21:37,669 --> 00:21:35,520
within a dogma or

577
00:21:40,549 --> 00:21:37,679
being victims of some other

578
00:21:43,510 --> 00:21:41,430
trap

579
00:21:45,909 --> 00:21:43,520
recently professor williams published an

580
00:21:48,549 --> 00:21:45,919
interview with mattias desmet are you

581
00:21:49,590 --> 00:21:48,559
familiar with matthias desmond

582
00:21:52,390 --> 00:21:49,600
no

583
00:21:54,549 --> 00:21:52,400
he's a professor of clinical psychology

584
00:21:56,070 --> 00:21:54,559
at ghent university in belgium and

585
00:21:58,470 --> 00:21:56,080
author of the psychology of

586
00:21:59,350 --> 00:21:58,480
totalitarianism um you probably heard

587
00:22:01,430 --> 00:21:59,360
the

588
00:22:03,750 --> 00:22:01,440
phrase circling around mass formation

589
00:22:05,190 --> 00:22:03,760
psychosis yeah popular a few months ago

590
00:22:06,149 --> 00:22:05,200
yeah so

591
00:22:08,390 --> 00:22:06,159
um

592
00:22:10,870 --> 00:22:08,400
his interestingly enough his thoughts

593
00:22:13,510 --> 00:22:10,880
regarding what he deems to be

594
00:22:16,630 --> 00:22:13,520
the mechanistic worldview uh run

595
00:22:18,310 --> 00:22:16,640
parallel with your um central

596
00:22:20,390 --> 00:22:18,320
ontological proposition that

597
00:22:22,149 --> 00:22:20,400
consciousness is fundamental to being

598
00:22:23,510 --> 00:22:22,159
and that the opposite materialist

599
00:22:25,510 --> 00:22:23,520
ontology or consciousness is an

600
00:22:27,270 --> 00:22:25,520
epiphenomenon of the brain relegating

601
00:22:30,390 --> 00:22:27,280
man to the status of biological robot in

602
00:22:32,630 --> 00:22:30,400
a meaningless world um it's exactly this

603
00:22:33,990 --> 00:22:32,640
materialist world view

604
00:22:36,310 --> 00:22:34,000
prominent since the enlightenment the

605
00:22:38,310 --> 00:22:36,320
desmond claims leads to people feeling

606
00:22:40,789 --> 00:22:38,320
disconnected from the environment as

607
00:22:42,950 --> 00:22:40,799
well as feeling social isolation and

608
00:22:44,149 --> 00:22:42,960
loneliness and experiencing a lack of

609
00:22:46,390 --> 00:22:44,159
meaning making

610
00:22:48,149 --> 00:22:46,400
he argues that this meaninglessness

611
00:22:50,390 --> 00:22:48,159
turns into a feeling of free-floating

612
00:22:52,710 --> 00:22:50,400
anxiety aggression and depression

613
00:22:55,270 --> 00:22:52,720
essentially unexplainable existential

614
00:22:56,950 --> 00:22:55,280
angst and lack of control

615
00:22:58,950 --> 00:22:56,960
and then he goes on to

616
00:23:01,270 --> 00:22:58,960
sort of form this thesis that mass

617
00:23:02,789 --> 00:23:01,280
formation psychosis which um he

618
00:23:05,350 --> 00:23:02,799
characterizes as a kind of group

619
00:23:07,110 --> 00:23:05,360
hypnosis that destroys individuals

620
00:23:09,029 --> 00:23:07,120
ethical self-awareness and robs some of

621
00:23:10,870 --> 00:23:09,039
their ability to think critically

622
00:23:12,870 --> 00:23:10,880
can then take hold

623
00:23:16,470 --> 00:23:12,880
when that psychological state is

624
00:23:19,510 --> 00:23:16,480
exploited and he goes on to state that

625
00:23:21,750 --> 00:23:19,520
this is at the root of totalitarianism

626
00:23:23,430 --> 00:23:21,760
and this type of population

627
00:23:24,149 --> 00:23:23,440
that's been kind of manipulated in this

628
00:23:26,390 --> 00:23:24,159
way

629
00:23:27,990 --> 00:23:26,400
exhibits a profound intolerance of

630
00:23:29,750 --> 00:23:28,000
dissident voices

631
00:23:32,070 --> 00:23:29,760
and a pronounced susceptibility to

632
00:23:34,710 --> 00:23:32,080
pseudoscientific indoctrination and

633
00:23:37,270 --> 00:23:34,720
propaganda he states that

634
00:23:39,510 --> 00:23:37,280
rational argumentation has no impact on

635
00:23:42,390 --> 00:23:39,520
what a mass believes in and that once

636
00:23:44,310 --> 00:23:42,400
the attention becomes very narrow

637
00:23:46,549 --> 00:23:44,320
the information situated outside the

638
00:23:48,549 --> 00:23:46,559
field of attention is not taken into

639
00:23:51,029 --> 00:23:48,559
account so people who are very

640
00:23:52,789 --> 00:23:51,039
intelligent become seemingly very stupid

641
00:23:55,350 --> 00:23:52,799
um they become very susceptible to

642
00:23:57,750 --> 00:23:55,360
constantly repeated emotional messages

643
00:23:59,350 --> 00:23:57,760
and also strong visual stimuli images

644
00:24:01,830 --> 00:23:59,360
and visually represented numbers like

645
00:24:03,830 --> 00:24:01,840
graphs so what do you make of this

646
00:24:05,750 --> 00:24:03,840
theory um now that i've kind of

647
00:24:08,070 --> 00:24:05,760
summarized it for you and do you think

648
00:24:09,669 --> 00:24:08,080
that it explains some of the reactions

649
00:24:12,390 --> 00:24:09,679
of the scientific scientific community

650
00:24:13,990 --> 00:24:12,400
over the years toward parapsychology and

651
00:24:15,029 --> 00:24:14,000
research into the extended consciousness

652
00:24:16,149 --> 00:24:15,039
realm

653
00:24:18,549 --> 00:24:16,159
um

654
00:24:20,870 --> 00:24:18,559
is that like part of the picture or is

655
00:24:23,110 --> 00:24:20,880
it all conspiratorial or like is it a

656
00:24:26,390 --> 00:24:23,120
mix or what do you think

657
00:24:29,590 --> 00:24:26,400
i think it's a mix what do you think rob

658
00:24:32,789 --> 00:24:29,600
i think that um you and matthias desmond

659
00:24:34,230 --> 00:24:32,799
should have a conversation alex um

660
00:24:36,390 --> 00:24:34,240
yeah his new book

661
00:24:39,430 --> 00:24:36,400
as brandon just mentioned the psychology

662
00:24:41,669 --> 00:24:39,440
of totalitarianism drops next week in

663
00:24:43,669 --> 00:24:41,679
the english translation

664
00:24:46,149 --> 00:24:43,679
and it's being published actually by our

665
00:24:47,990 --> 00:24:46,159
most fearless independent publishing

666
00:24:50,230 --> 00:24:48,000
house here in vermont

667
00:24:51,990 --> 00:24:50,240
chelsea green

668
00:24:53,909 --> 00:24:52,000
and this will be

669
00:24:55,510 --> 00:24:53,919
gosh i think the fourth book now that

670
00:24:57,909 --> 00:24:55,520
they've published related to the

671
00:24:59,669 --> 00:24:57,919
covitopian situation

672
00:25:01,669 --> 00:24:59,679
of the past couple of years

673
00:25:03,430 --> 00:25:01,679
but but to bring it a little bit closer

674
00:25:04,549 --> 00:25:03,440
to home and and maybe to piggyback on

675
00:25:06,789 --> 00:25:04,559
brandon's

676
00:25:09,430 --> 00:25:06,799
framing here

677
00:25:11,510 --> 00:25:09,440
um and it sounds like you're you're not

678
00:25:13,909 --> 00:25:11,520
we we should have once you if and when

679
00:25:16,149 --> 00:25:13,919
you have a chance alex to kind of dive

680
00:25:17,669 --> 00:25:16,159
into mass formation

681
00:25:19,990 --> 00:25:17,679
um and

682
00:25:21,830 --> 00:25:20,000
and uh matthias book maybe this summer

683
00:25:23,190 --> 00:25:21,840
it'd be fantastic to have another

684
00:25:25,190 --> 00:25:23,200
conversation with you about it maybe we

685
00:25:27,110 --> 00:25:25,200
can get matthias in the loop too

686
00:25:28,870 --> 00:25:27,120
um but but i guess what i'm struck by in

687
00:25:31,190 --> 00:25:28,880
listening to brandon and you talk here

688
00:25:34,710 --> 00:25:32,789
is there a

689
00:25:38,950 --> 00:25:34,720
conspiracy

690
00:25:40,310 --> 00:25:38,960
literally are there people breathing

691
00:25:42,470 --> 00:25:40,320
together

692
00:25:44,870 --> 00:25:42,480
out there in the world who are waging a

693
00:25:47,669 --> 00:25:44,880
strategic war

694
00:25:48,470 --> 00:25:47,679
on consciousness

695
00:25:51,029 --> 00:25:48,480
right

696
00:25:53,269 --> 00:25:51,039
so this is and i love

697
00:25:55,669 --> 00:25:53,279
the breathing together

698
00:25:58,310 --> 00:25:55,679
uh deeper understanding of conspiracy

699
00:26:00,870 --> 00:25:58,320
yeah can i can i piggyback on that yeah

700
00:26:03,110 --> 00:26:00,880
okay um so let me get let me give an

701
00:26:05,110 --> 00:26:03,120
analogy to kind of frame my question and

702
00:26:07,350 --> 00:26:05,120
i guess the question is is there

703
00:26:10,310 --> 00:26:07,360
a war being waged on

704
00:26:12,549 --> 00:26:10,320
our understandings of consciousness and

705
00:26:14,070 --> 00:26:12,559
what's possible that's perhaps a better

706
00:26:17,110 --> 00:26:14,080
framing but let me give you an example

707
00:26:20,630 --> 00:26:17,120
so we've been told now i think for 25 30

708
00:26:24,230 --> 00:26:20,640
years that carbon dioxide

709
00:26:25,830 --> 00:26:24,240
carbon dioxide is not only a waste gas

710
00:26:26,870 --> 00:26:25,840
i'm using air quotes for people

711
00:26:30,630 --> 00:26:26,880
listening

712
00:26:34,230 --> 00:26:30,640
a waste gas it is causing

713
00:26:38,470 --> 00:26:34,240
the demise of the planet

714
00:26:41,029 --> 00:26:38,480
now anybody who understands respiratory

715
00:26:42,789 --> 00:26:41,039
physiology and understands the basics of

716
00:26:46,310 --> 00:26:42,799
breath work

717
00:26:49,350 --> 00:26:46,320
will tell you that carbon dioxide

718
00:26:53,350 --> 00:26:49,360
is our body's most important respiratory

719
00:26:54,630 --> 00:26:53,360
gas and it appears in our bodies at 100

720
00:26:57,350 --> 00:26:54,640
times

721
00:26:59,269 --> 00:26:57,360
the volume of oxygen

722
00:27:01,029 --> 00:26:59,279
which of course provides energy to our

723
00:27:03,750 --> 00:27:01,039
cells and tissues and organs when we

724
00:27:05,110 --> 00:27:03,760
breathe oxygen in so think about this

725
00:27:08,310 --> 00:27:05,120
for a minute

726
00:27:10,789 --> 00:27:08,320
we're literally seeing a war

727
00:27:13,830 --> 00:27:10,799
being waged out there in the culture on

728
00:27:16,789 --> 00:27:13,840
our bodies most important respiratory

729
00:27:19,750 --> 00:27:16,799
gas it is our bodies trigger to breathe

730
00:27:21,190 --> 00:27:19,760
we breathe alex and brandon in the

731
00:27:24,470 --> 00:27:21,200
presence

732
00:27:27,110 --> 00:27:24,480
of carbon dioxide not in its absence

733
00:27:28,870 --> 00:27:27,120
so there's my analogy right

734
00:27:30,549 --> 00:27:28,880
we see a war being waged on carbon

735
00:27:32,230 --> 00:27:30,559
dioxide is there a war and this is

736
00:27:34,070 --> 00:27:32,240
perhaps even more profound than waging a

737
00:27:38,310 --> 00:27:34,080
war on carbon dioxide is there a war

738
00:27:41,590 --> 00:27:39,029
yeah

739
00:27:43,830 --> 00:27:41,600
i love that and i just don't know how

740
00:27:45,110 --> 00:27:43,840
we're going to be able to tile

741
00:27:47,269 --> 00:27:45,120
together

742
00:27:49,669 --> 00:27:47,279
sorry

743
00:27:51,430 --> 00:27:49,679
i i think the i think the breath work

744
00:27:54,149 --> 00:27:51,440
thing is so

745
00:27:56,389 --> 00:27:54,159
tremendously important on a kind of

746
00:27:57,510 --> 00:27:56,399
direct experience level you know like

747
00:27:58,870 --> 00:27:57,520
people

748
00:28:00,870 --> 00:27:58,880
and you know this because this is what

749
00:28:03,510 --> 00:28:00,880
you help people do

750
00:28:05,350 --> 00:28:03,520
you can go show people or help people

751
00:28:08,389 --> 00:28:05,360
coach people into breathing and they

752
00:28:11,430 --> 00:28:08,399
will have an immediate physiological

753
00:28:13,830 --> 00:28:11,440
and mental response to that and that's

754
00:28:15,269 --> 00:28:13,840
like a door to open up to all the things

755
00:28:16,870 --> 00:28:15,279
that you're saying and then you're

756
00:28:19,430 --> 00:28:16,880
taking in this whole other level which

757
00:28:21,350 --> 00:28:19,440
is i hadn't really contemplated before

758
00:28:22,149 --> 00:28:21,360
but you could see me chuckling here it's

759
00:28:24,389 --> 00:28:22,159
like

760
00:28:26,470 --> 00:28:24,399
of course of course why didn't we see

761
00:28:27,269 --> 00:28:26,480
that until somebody points that out we

762
00:28:28,789 --> 00:28:27,279
don't

763
00:28:31,269 --> 00:28:28,799
so

764
00:28:33,029 --> 00:28:31,279
the the second book that i wrote and

765
00:28:35,269 --> 00:28:33,039
i'll show i'll tell you my my sequence

766
00:28:37,190 --> 00:28:35,279
here so why science is wrong about

767
00:28:39,669 --> 00:28:37,200
almost everything is if you can't

768
00:28:41,669 --> 00:28:39,679
measure consciousness exactly what which

769
00:28:44,549 --> 00:28:41,679
you picked up on rob and brandon you've

770
00:28:46,710 --> 00:28:44,559
got it too is that if you're gonna run

771
00:28:48,470 --> 00:28:46,720
an experiment and if you're gonna the

772
00:28:50,710 --> 00:28:48,480
simplest experiment you can do you say

773
00:28:52,870 --> 00:28:50,720
hey what temperature does water boil at

774
00:28:55,269 --> 00:28:52,880
you go oh that's easy it's 212 degrees

775
00:28:58,389 --> 00:28:55,279
or it's 100 degrees celsius you go

776
00:29:00,950 --> 00:28:58,399
okay but you forgot one of the controls

777
00:29:01,909 --> 00:29:00,960
what altitude are you at you go oh yeah

778
00:29:03,669 --> 00:29:01,919
that's right if you had a different

779
00:29:05,510 --> 00:29:03,679
altitude

780
00:29:07,350 --> 00:29:05,520
so now i've opened you up to the idea

781
00:29:08,630 --> 00:29:07,360
that there are different variables that

782
00:29:11,110 --> 00:29:08,640
you have to control before you give your

783
00:29:13,590 --> 00:29:11,120
pat answer and then as you not

784
00:29:15,990 --> 00:29:13,600
appreciate you reading that quote say

785
00:29:18,710 --> 00:29:16,000
okay what if what if i was to

786
00:29:21,510 --> 00:29:18,720
experimentally demonstrate that

787
00:29:24,149 --> 00:29:21,520
consciousness uh the the that little

788
00:29:25,510 --> 00:29:24,159
voice inside your head could actually

789
00:29:27,510 --> 00:29:25,520
you know

790
00:29:29,909 --> 00:29:27,520
is it a wave is a particle kind of thing

791
00:29:33,669 --> 00:29:29,919
that observation that consciousness

792
00:29:35,190 --> 00:29:33,679
could play a role in our physical

793
00:29:37,190 --> 00:29:35,200
world right

794
00:29:40,070 --> 00:29:37,200
would we then have to

795
00:29:42,950 --> 00:29:40,080
at least consider the possibility that

796
00:29:44,230 --> 00:29:42,960
just like altitude now we have another

797
00:29:48,870 --> 00:29:44,240
variable

798
00:29:50,549 --> 00:29:48,880
consciousness

799
00:29:53,430 --> 00:29:50,559
and then i could wrestle you to the

800
00:29:56,149 --> 00:29:53,440
ground because i could show you the best

801
00:29:57,750 --> 00:29:56,159
parapsychology experiments and i could

802
00:30:01,350 --> 00:29:57,760
show you dean raiden we could talk about

803
00:30:03,269 --> 00:30:01,360
his transhumanism craziness but

804
00:30:06,149 --> 00:30:03,279
replicated you know

805
00:30:08,389 --> 00:30:06,159
50 times in labs across the world six

806
00:30:10,710 --> 00:30:08,399
sigma result i could beat you into the

807
00:30:14,389 --> 00:30:10,720
ground saying this is some of the most

808
00:30:17,669 --> 00:30:14,399
reliable science you can count on and it

809
00:30:19,990 --> 00:30:17,679
will tell you conclusively that there is

810
00:30:22,710 --> 00:30:20,000
more there is that effect that i'm

811
00:30:24,470 --> 00:30:22,720
talking about so now i would and this is

812
00:30:26,950 --> 00:30:24,480
building on what you said brandon in

813
00:30:29,110 --> 00:30:26,960
that this is the sequence that i of the

814
00:30:30,789 --> 00:30:29,120
stack that i would build i would say

815
00:30:34,310 --> 00:30:30,799
therefore

816
00:30:36,630 --> 00:30:34,320
then you must put an asterisk by every

817
00:30:39,350 --> 00:30:36,640
freaking experiment you ever do if it

818
00:30:41,830 --> 00:30:39,360
doesn't factor in consciousness because

819
00:30:43,830 --> 00:30:41,840
consciousness is now in the game it's

820
00:30:45,110 --> 00:30:43,840
been proven experimentally it's in the

821
00:30:47,430 --> 00:30:45,120
game

822
00:30:48,630 --> 00:30:47,440
we can't exactly say what it is but it's

823
00:30:51,110 --> 00:30:48,640
in the game

824
00:30:54,630 --> 00:30:51,120
but that's book number one

825
00:30:57,509 --> 00:30:54,640
book number two is why evil matters

826
00:31:00,310 --> 00:30:57,519
and here's the because this to me

827
00:31:02,070 --> 00:31:00,320
answers your question rob

828
00:31:04,389 --> 00:31:02,080
which is if you start thinking about

829
00:31:07,590 --> 00:31:04,399
this and you go okay yeah

830
00:31:08,870 --> 00:31:07,600
consciousness it is in the game it is in

831
00:31:11,669 --> 00:31:08,880
the mix

832
00:31:14,310 --> 00:31:11,679
now you are also forced to

833
00:31:17,029 --> 00:31:14,320
consider what i always call extended

834
00:31:18,950 --> 00:31:17,039
consciousness and that's just to kind of

835
00:31:20,710 --> 00:31:18,960
differentiate between you know when you

836
00:31:22,149 --> 00:31:20,720
talk to the

837
00:31:23,909 --> 00:31:22,159
normie

838
00:31:26,230 --> 00:31:23,919
materialistic scientists they have an

839
00:31:28,149 --> 00:31:26,240
idea what consciousness is and okay what

840
00:31:29,669 --> 00:31:28,159
about extended consciousness what about

841
00:31:31,509 --> 00:31:29,679
this guy over here what about after

842
00:31:32,710 --> 00:31:31,519
death experience out-of-body experience

843
00:31:35,110 --> 00:31:32,720
what about

844
00:31:37,269 --> 00:31:35,120
hallucinogenic experience all that stuff

845
00:31:39,509 --> 00:31:37,279
shamanic experience and they go well i

846
00:31:42,870 --> 00:31:39,519
don't know would you at least agree that

847
00:31:45,190 --> 00:31:42,880
those non-ordinary experiences are being

848
00:31:46,710 --> 00:31:45,200
reported let's put them in this category

849
00:31:48,549 --> 00:31:46,720
called

850
00:31:51,029 --> 00:31:48,559
extended consciousness

851
00:31:54,070 --> 00:31:51,039
and now when we look at that extended

852
00:31:56,310 --> 00:31:54,080
consciousness experience the question

853
00:31:59,430 --> 00:31:56,320
that comes to me the bottom line

854
00:32:01,750 --> 00:31:59,440
question is really for all of us the

855
00:32:03,350 --> 00:32:01,760
question is who are we why are we here

856
00:32:06,470 --> 00:32:03,360
and that

857
00:32:09,110 --> 00:32:06,480
translates in at some level to

858
00:32:10,870 --> 00:32:09,120
is there a moral imperative is there

859
00:32:14,549 --> 00:32:10,880
right and wrong

860
00:32:16,789 --> 00:32:14,559
are there actions that are wrong

861
00:32:19,909 --> 00:32:16,799
and to put it in simple terms up with

862
00:32:21,350 --> 00:32:19,919
the term evil on it and uh

863
00:32:24,310 --> 00:32:21,360
without

864
00:32:26,950 --> 00:32:24,320
you know naming what's evil what isn't

865
00:32:29,430 --> 00:32:26,960
the question i was trying to get to is

866
00:32:31,830 --> 00:32:29,440
does evil matter does the question of

867
00:32:34,470 --> 00:32:31,840
whether or not there is this moral

868
00:32:35,669 --> 00:32:34,480
imperative whether that could possibly

869
00:32:38,070 --> 00:32:35,679
exist

870
00:32:41,430 --> 00:32:38,080
does that matter well i think it matters

871
00:32:42,710 --> 00:32:41,440
fundamentally because if we answer that

872
00:32:44,310 --> 00:32:42,720
question

873
00:32:47,669 --> 00:32:44,320
with that

874
00:32:50,710 --> 00:32:47,679
oh okay i am now open to the possibility

875
00:32:51,590 --> 00:32:50,720
that there is a right and wrong

876
00:32:52,950 --> 00:32:51,600
and

877
00:32:55,509 --> 00:32:52,960
that maybe

878
00:32:56,950 --> 00:32:55,519
then then i'm then i'm in the soup and

879
00:32:58,789 --> 00:32:56,960
the story i always tell with this and

880
00:33:01,029 --> 00:32:58,799
it's the opening story from that book is

881
00:33:03,350 --> 00:33:01,039
i introdu interviewed this guy fbi agent

882
00:33:04,710 --> 00:33:03,360
undercover fbi agent

883
00:33:06,870 --> 00:33:04,720
i told the story a million times i got

884
00:33:08,549 --> 00:33:06,880
to saw it again for you guys

885
00:33:11,990 --> 00:33:08,559
he was he had

886
00:33:13,269 --> 00:33:12,000
infiltrated uh nambla uh the pedophile

887
00:33:14,310 --> 00:33:13,279
group for

888
00:33:16,070 --> 00:33:14,320
trying to

889
00:33:17,110 --> 00:33:16,080
get little boys and all that horrible

890
00:33:20,389 --> 00:33:17,120
stuff

891
00:33:21,909 --> 00:33:20,399
and uh he said he was on like an

892
00:33:24,549 --> 00:33:21,919
undercover project with him and they had

893
00:33:27,029 --> 00:33:24,559
gone to new york city and all these

894
00:33:29,509 --> 00:33:27,039
men these pedophiles wanted to go to

895
00:33:30,950 --> 00:33:29,519
toys r us back in the day when it's in

896
00:33:32,230 --> 00:33:30,960
uh

897
00:33:34,630 --> 00:33:32,240
times square and they had a huge

898
00:33:36,149 --> 00:33:34,640
carousel inside and these guys are

899
00:33:38,470 --> 00:33:36,159
leaning over the rail and they're

900
00:33:40,630 --> 00:33:38,480
looking at these little boys

901
00:33:42,149 --> 00:33:40,640
and little girls but main little boys

902
00:33:43,590 --> 00:33:42,159
and they're saying not only the things

903
00:33:44,789 --> 00:33:43,600
that they want to do the horrible things

904
00:33:46,710 --> 00:33:44,799
that they want to do sexually but

905
00:33:48,789 --> 00:33:46,720
they're saying that the pain

906
00:33:51,029 --> 00:33:48,799
they want to inflict and the amount of

907
00:33:53,669 --> 00:33:51,039
control and dominance they want to have

908
00:33:57,430 --> 00:33:53,679
and the fbi agents tell me this story he

909
00:33:59,669 --> 00:33:57,440
says i just it's the closest i ever came

910
00:34:01,590 --> 00:33:59,679
to you know kind of breaking undercover

911
00:34:04,470 --> 00:34:01,600
because i just want to pick up these men

912
00:34:06,389 --> 00:34:04,480
and throw them over the rail

913
00:34:09,190 --> 00:34:06,399
and we all can feel that especially any

914
00:34:10,710 --> 00:34:09,200
of us who have kids can feel that

915
00:34:12,869 --> 00:34:10,720
and the question i always bring to

916
00:34:14,710 --> 00:34:12,879
people is okay forget all that now back

917
00:34:16,869 --> 00:34:14,720
to this thing do you think there is such

918
00:34:19,190 --> 00:34:16,879
a thing as good and bad is there such a

919
00:34:20,950 --> 00:34:19,200
thing as evil you know without without

920
00:34:23,589 --> 00:34:20,960
judging you know how it came and all the

921
00:34:26,310 --> 00:34:23,599
rest that is that you know potentially

922
00:34:30,869 --> 00:34:26,320
evil everyone goes oh yeah that

923
00:34:35,909 --> 00:34:33,030
yeah yeah i don't know if i heard you

924
00:34:37,990 --> 00:34:35,919
say this but um there are certain

925
00:34:40,149 --> 00:34:38,000
principles that

926
00:34:42,389 --> 00:34:40,159
when they

927
00:34:45,030 --> 00:34:42,399
are shared not only cross-culturally but

928
00:34:46,790 --> 00:34:45,040
also across temporally that's something

929
00:34:49,510 --> 00:34:46,800
that we can point to and say okay this

930
00:34:50,629 --> 00:34:49,520
is potentially a universal

931
00:34:51,990 --> 00:34:50,639
truth

932
00:34:54,149 --> 00:34:52,000
and i think something like that like

933
00:34:55,829 --> 00:34:54,159
it's it's easy to define

934
00:34:57,670 --> 00:34:55,839
you know

935
00:34:59,030 --> 00:34:57,680
what is good and what is evil when we

936
00:35:01,510 --> 00:34:59,040
think about things in terms of that like

937
00:35:03,030 --> 00:35:01,520
it's very very difficult um to say that

938
00:35:04,870 --> 00:35:03,040
this is just like a product of our

939
00:35:06,790 --> 00:35:04,880
culture like this is something that i

940
00:35:07,750 --> 00:35:06,800
think we can universally recognize is an

941
00:35:09,349 --> 00:35:07,760
evil

942
00:35:12,069 --> 00:35:09,359
and you know we can go from there and

943
00:35:13,910 --> 00:35:12,079
kind of build you know a moral system

944
00:35:15,510 --> 00:35:13,920
from that um you know it gets a little

945
00:35:17,829 --> 00:35:15,520
bit more nebulous the farther away from

946
00:35:18,870 --> 00:35:17,839
that you know we go

947
00:35:20,470 --> 00:35:18,880
um

948
00:35:24,550 --> 00:35:20,480
but i'm thinking like getting back to

949
00:35:27,270 --> 00:35:24,560
the conspiratorial um conversation

950
00:35:29,270 --> 00:35:27,280
um so so hold on let me okay sorry sorry

951
00:35:31,430 --> 00:35:29,280
tie it together no no no you i'm

952
00:35:33,589 --> 00:35:31,440
interrupting you so don't apologize but

953
00:35:35,190 --> 00:35:33,599
i want to tie that to conspiracy and i

954
00:35:37,190 --> 00:35:35,200
want to tie it to the

955
00:35:38,390 --> 00:35:37,200
totalitarian kind of thing that's where

956
00:35:39,349 --> 00:35:38,400
i was going

957
00:35:43,510 --> 00:35:39,359
oh

958
00:35:48,310 --> 00:35:45,910
i want to start with evil i want to

959
00:35:50,710 --> 00:35:48,320
start with spirituality i want to start

960
00:35:53,910 --> 00:35:50,720
with that little voice inside my head

961
00:35:56,630 --> 00:35:53,920
who am i why am i here and i don't want

962
00:36:00,069 --> 00:35:56,640
to be knocked off that block until i'm

963
00:36:03,270 --> 00:36:00,079
firmly established in the idea that

964
00:36:04,150 --> 00:36:03,280
i am more than that little voice in my

965
00:36:07,910 --> 00:36:04,160
head

966
00:36:09,670 --> 00:36:07,920
that's my spirituality and that i

967
00:36:11,030 --> 00:36:09,680
am good

968
00:36:12,470 --> 00:36:11,040
fundamentally

969
00:36:14,710 --> 00:36:12,480
that divine

970
00:36:16,950 --> 00:36:14,720
light whatever that is non-religious

971
00:36:19,510 --> 00:36:16,960
whatever there is

972
00:36:22,470 --> 00:36:19,520
the light is always shining and it's

973
00:36:24,470 --> 00:36:22,480
always coming through me i'm blocking it

974
00:36:26,950 --> 00:36:24,480
i'm screwing it up i'm doing everything

975
00:36:30,310 --> 00:36:26,960
to deny it but it's always there and the

976
00:36:32,150 --> 00:36:30,320
goodness is always with me

977
00:36:34,230 --> 00:36:32,160
now from there

978
00:36:35,829 --> 00:36:34,240
can i understand

979
00:36:36,950 --> 00:36:35,839
people who

980
00:36:39,430 --> 00:36:36,960
have

981
00:36:41,990 --> 00:36:39,440
blockages that cause them to do very

982
00:36:44,069 --> 00:36:42,000
destructive things to other people can i

983
00:36:46,870 --> 00:36:44,079
understand evil can i understand

984
00:36:49,510 --> 00:36:46,880
deception can i understand

985
00:36:52,710 --> 00:36:49,520
totalitarian states

986
00:36:55,270 --> 00:36:52,720
i can i can now begin to understand all

987
00:36:58,150 --> 00:36:55,280
those things but i have to be grounded

988
00:36:58,950 --> 00:36:58,160
in the reality the reality

989
00:37:00,390 --> 00:36:58,960
that

990
00:37:02,310 --> 00:37:00,400
there is

991
00:37:05,750 --> 00:37:02,320
a good that the light is always shining

992
00:37:08,710 --> 00:37:07,510
beautifully said

993
00:37:10,710 --> 00:37:08,720
yeah absolutely

994
00:37:13,270 --> 00:37:10,720
um

995
00:37:16,950 --> 00:37:13,280
so with

996
00:37:19,990 --> 00:37:16,960
with consciousness being fundamental and

997
00:37:22,230 --> 00:37:20,000
with their being um

998
00:37:25,109 --> 00:37:22,240
experimentally verified this this

999
00:37:27,990 --> 00:37:25,119
extended consciousness realm

1000
00:37:30,390 --> 00:37:28,000
um would you say that that

1001
00:37:31,990 --> 00:37:30,400
indicates that like your consciousness

1002
00:37:33,670 --> 00:37:32,000
your individual consciousness is part of

1003
00:37:35,750 --> 00:37:33,680
something greater is that something that

1004
00:37:37,030 --> 00:37:35,760
you would do you think that that follows

1005
00:37:39,670 --> 00:37:37,040
because your consciousness is able to

1006
00:37:42,069 --> 00:37:39,680
like reach out and touch

1007
00:37:43,990 --> 00:37:42,079
objects that are at a distance that we

1008
00:37:45,030 --> 00:37:44,000
kind of have this like sort of quantum

1009
00:37:47,030 --> 00:37:45,040
spooky

1010
00:37:48,829 --> 00:37:47,040
effect at a distance going on with

1011
00:37:52,069 --> 00:37:48,839
consciousness

1012
00:37:54,310 --> 00:37:52,079
um and do you think that that

1013
00:37:55,829 --> 00:37:54,320
realization that your individual

1014
00:37:58,150 --> 00:37:55,839
consciousness is part of something

1015
00:38:00,390 --> 00:37:58,160
greater do you think that

1016
00:38:02,230 --> 00:38:00,400
is um sort of the foundation to build

1017
00:38:04,310 --> 00:38:02,240
like a moral system upon and do you

1018
00:38:05,349 --> 00:38:04,320
think that that's something that if more

1019
00:38:07,829 --> 00:38:05,359
people

1020
00:38:11,190 --> 00:38:07,839
were in that paradigm

1021
00:38:12,710 --> 00:38:11,200
versus the um the mechanistic paradigm

1022
00:38:14,230 --> 00:38:12,720
as described by desmond or you know just

1023
00:38:15,510 --> 00:38:14,240
calling the physicalist or materialist

1024
00:38:16,790 --> 00:38:15,520
paradigm

1025
00:38:19,030 --> 00:38:16,800
that has

1026
00:38:21,430 --> 00:38:19,040
resulted in the 21st century in this

1027
00:38:23,109 --> 00:38:21,440
kind of existential angst and lack of

1028
00:38:24,630 --> 00:38:23,119
meaning that we have do you think that

1029
00:38:26,470 --> 00:38:24,640
we would be living in a different world

1030
00:38:28,150 --> 00:38:26,480
if we were more in the former paradigm

1031
00:38:29,829 --> 00:38:28,160
versus the latter

1032
00:38:31,510 --> 00:38:29,839
see i i like the way you're kind of

1033
00:38:33,670 --> 00:38:31,520
traversing that territory now because

1034
00:38:35,430 --> 00:38:33,680
now we're talking about it

1035
00:38:37,270 --> 00:38:35,440
differently you know

1036
00:38:38,710 --> 00:38:37,280
there's there's a leap because what

1037
00:38:41,790 --> 00:38:38,720
you're describing again it goes back the

1038
00:38:43,829 --> 00:38:41,800
very first kind of ontologic ontological

1039
00:38:47,430 --> 00:38:43,839
epistemological kind of

1040
00:38:49,109 --> 00:38:47,440
thing you were laying out in terms of

1041
00:38:51,670 --> 00:38:49,119
there's some things

1042
00:38:53,829 --> 00:38:51,680
that you can prove experimentally but

1043
00:38:55,190 --> 00:38:53,839
really uh let me kind of switch gears

1044
00:38:57,470 --> 00:38:55,200
for a little bit sure

1045
00:38:59,670 --> 00:38:57,480
we have to understand that

1046
00:39:02,310 --> 00:38:59,680
experimentally when we show that

1047
00:39:03,510 --> 00:39:02,320
consciousness is the asterisk in all our

1048
00:39:06,470 --> 00:39:03,520
experiments

1049
00:39:07,670 --> 00:39:06,480
we have more or less obsoleted

1050
00:39:13,670 --> 00:39:07,680
science

1051
00:39:16,069 --> 00:39:13,680
is to show that it is

1052
00:39:19,190 --> 00:39:16,079
incomplete that it will always be

1053
00:39:20,790 --> 00:39:19,200
incomplete because it is

1054
00:39:22,950 --> 00:39:20,800
because consciousness is fundamental

1055
00:39:24,790 --> 00:39:22,960
that's the implications of that but and

1056
00:39:26,870 --> 00:39:24,800
then the further leap that you're that

1057
00:39:29,990 --> 00:39:26,880
you're i like your reluctance your

1058
00:39:31,589 --> 00:39:30,000
reluctance to go there because what the

1059
00:39:34,150 --> 00:39:31,599
the evil leap

1060
00:39:36,630 --> 00:39:34,160
is the good leap right let's make that

1061
00:39:38,390 --> 00:39:36,640
clear the the reason to focus on evil is

1062
00:39:40,069 --> 00:39:38,400
because it focuses that there's

1063
00:39:41,990 --> 00:39:40,079
something else there is if there is a

1064
00:39:44,790 --> 00:39:42,000
moral imperative

1065
00:39:47,030 --> 00:39:44,800
then there is good then there is light

1066
00:39:49,510 --> 00:39:47,040
but we don't know that experimentally

1067
00:39:52,230 --> 00:39:49,520
and we've already obsoleted the science

1068
00:39:55,349 --> 00:39:52,240
so we can never know that experimentally

1069
00:39:57,270 --> 00:39:55,359
what we can do now is use a different

1070
00:39:59,430 --> 00:39:57,280
set of tools

1071
00:40:00,630 --> 00:39:59,440
again as you point out and i want to

1072
00:40:02,150 --> 00:40:00,640
pull rob into this because i want to

1073
00:40:04,390 --> 00:40:02,160
understand i want to talk about

1074
00:40:07,109 --> 00:40:04,400
breathing and the connection between wim

1075
00:40:09,670 --> 00:40:07,119
hof and yoga and i read william hoff as

1076
00:40:10,470 --> 00:40:09,680
a very spiritual man

1077
00:40:12,870 --> 00:40:10,480
too

1078
00:40:14,710 --> 00:40:12,880
and i love the way he lives in these two

1079
00:40:17,109 --> 00:40:14,720
worlds he doesn't talk about that he

1080
00:40:19,589 --> 00:40:17,119
doesn't lead with that he leads with

1081
00:40:22,150 --> 00:40:19,599
have this experience and see where it

1082
00:40:24,230 --> 00:40:22,160
gets you kind of thing and i love that

1083
00:40:26,230 --> 00:40:24,240
but where i thought you were going

1084
00:40:27,270 --> 00:40:26,240
brandon was was

1085
00:40:29,910 --> 00:40:27,280
kind of

1086
00:40:31,589 --> 00:40:29,920
you know can we make that leap can we

1087
00:40:33,190 --> 00:40:31,599
make that leap and then you talked about

1088
00:40:34,550 --> 00:40:33,200
the cross culture crosstalk just

1089
00:40:36,550 --> 00:40:34,560
published an interview or maybe i'm

1090
00:40:39,270 --> 00:40:36,560
going to publish it today with one of my

1091
00:40:40,470 --> 00:40:39,280
favorite guys dr gregory shushan

1092
00:40:42,470 --> 00:40:40,480
he is

1093
00:40:45,990 --> 00:40:42,480
oxford train college of london train

1094
00:40:49,750 --> 00:40:46,000
super you know scholarly all that stuff

1095
00:40:54,630 --> 00:40:49,760
cross culture ndes throughout history

1096
00:40:57,670 --> 00:40:54,640
and it just it's the it it's extremely

1097
00:41:00,390 --> 00:40:57,680
extremely compelling evidence of exactly

1098
00:41:02,790 --> 00:41:00,400
what you're saying it that would

1099
00:41:06,390 --> 00:41:02,800
kind of close that gap to say i can have

1100
00:41:07,190 --> 00:41:06,400
confidence that there is more that there

1101
00:41:08,390 --> 00:41:07,200
is

1102
00:41:09,589 --> 00:41:08,400
something

1103
00:41:11,190 --> 00:41:09,599
to this

1104
00:41:12,870 --> 00:41:11,200
goodness you know like one of the things

1105
00:41:14,470 --> 00:41:12,880
he said in there he says you know of all

1106
00:41:16,710 --> 00:41:14,480
the accounts we've read both

1107
00:41:18,470 --> 00:41:16,720
contemporary and historically there's

1108
00:41:20,470 --> 00:41:18,480
never a count where someone

1109
00:41:22,630 --> 00:41:20,480
has a near-death experience and is told

1110
00:41:25,109 --> 00:41:22,640
to go back and do a school shooting you

1111
00:41:27,910 --> 00:41:25,119
know that hasn't that hasn't popped up

1112
00:41:28,950 --> 00:41:27,920
at anyone's near-death experience

1113
00:41:31,109 --> 00:41:28,960
love that

1114
00:41:34,150 --> 00:41:31,119
i'm just to both of you just a question

1115
00:41:35,910 --> 00:41:34,160
as i've been listening to this really

1116
00:41:38,230 --> 00:41:35,920
exciting conversation are either of you

1117
00:41:41,510 --> 00:41:38,240
familiar with andrew lobachowski's work

1118
00:41:42,550 --> 00:41:41,520
uh it's called political po neurology

1119
00:41:45,589 --> 00:41:42,560
i'm not

1120
00:41:46,950 --> 00:41:45,599
ponorology is the study of evil

1121
00:41:48,790 --> 00:41:46,960
believe it or not

1122
00:41:51,270 --> 00:41:48,800
and the subtitle of this book political

1123
00:41:54,470 --> 00:41:51,280
ponerology says it all a science on the

1124
00:41:56,230 --> 00:41:54,480
nature of evil adjusted for political

1125
00:41:58,550 --> 00:41:56,240
purposes

1126
00:42:00,790 --> 00:41:58,560
um i i think alex and and brandon both

1127
00:42:02,870 --> 00:42:00,800
of you would really find this book um

1128
00:42:04,790 --> 00:42:02,880
really insightful it's it's not it's not

1129
00:42:05,829 --> 00:42:04,800
an easy lift

1130
00:42:07,349 --> 00:42:05,839
um

1131
00:42:09,109 --> 00:42:07,359
but it's a

1132
00:42:10,870 --> 00:42:09,119
it's a much neglected but i think super

1133
00:42:12,150 --> 00:42:10,880
important book um

1134
00:42:14,790 --> 00:42:12,160
because he gets at a lot of these

1135
00:42:17,109 --> 00:42:14,800
questions and alex i think what i hear

1136
00:42:18,550 --> 00:42:17,119
and granted to what i hear you both

1137
00:42:20,390 --> 00:42:18,560
saying is

1138
00:42:23,349 --> 00:42:20,400
you know science is

1139
00:42:26,309 --> 00:42:23,359
useful as far as it goes

1140
00:42:29,190 --> 00:42:26,319
but it cannot claim to be as you quote

1141
00:42:31,430 --> 00:42:29,200
ethnobotanist the br the brilliant and

1142
00:42:34,870 --> 00:42:31,440
amusing terence mckenna

1143
00:42:35,750 --> 00:42:34,880
in uh in your in your book here alex

1144
00:42:37,910 --> 00:42:35,760
uh

1145
00:42:39,109 --> 00:42:37,920
one of the epigraph to chapter nine

1146
00:42:41,430 --> 00:42:39,119
science

1147
00:42:43,589 --> 00:42:41,440
this is terence mckenna now

1148
00:42:46,470 --> 00:42:43,599
the great sort of uh researcher of

1149
00:42:48,150 --> 00:42:46,480
hallucinogenic medicines and

1150
00:42:50,950 --> 00:42:48,160
way ahead of his time i think science

1151
00:42:53,190 --> 00:42:50,960
has great pretensions about itself

1152
00:42:56,470 --> 00:42:53,200
it basically regards itself as a meta

1153
00:42:58,630 --> 00:42:56,480
theory capable of passing judgment

1154
00:43:00,550 --> 00:42:58,640
on all other theories

1155
00:43:03,589 --> 00:43:00,560
these theories are supposed to submit

1156
00:43:05,109 --> 00:43:03,599
themselves to science to be told whether

1157
00:43:06,390 --> 00:43:05,119
they are right

1158
00:43:08,390 --> 00:43:06,400
or not

1159
00:43:10,069 --> 00:43:08,400
and we could also insert the the ethical

1160
00:43:11,349 --> 00:43:10,079
and moral frame there whether they are

1161
00:43:12,950 --> 00:43:11,359
good

1162
00:43:14,870 --> 00:43:12,960
or evil and then the last thing i'll say

1163
00:43:17,910 --> 00:43:14,880
is i'm reminded too of i think it was

1164
00:43:20,550 --> 00:43:17,920
alexander solzhenitsyn the great russian

1165
00:43:24,150 --> 00:43:20,560
uh philosopher and writer who said the

1166
00:43:27,030 --> 00:43:24,160
line between good and evil runs through

1167
00:43:29,510 --> 00:43:27,040
the heart of us all

1168
00:43:33,349 --> 00:43:29,520
and so this notion of evil and good

1169
00:43:38,470 --> 00:43:35,829
constantly in in dialogue with one

1170
00:43:40,630 --> 00:43:38,480
another both at a civilizational level

1171
00:43:42,230 --> 00:43:40,640
but also i think at an individual level

1172
00:43:44,950 --> 00:43:42,240
within us

1173
00:43:46,950 --> 00:43:44,960
um and and i think you know religions

1174
00:43:48,790 --> 00:43:46,960
have been invented by

1175
00:43:49,910 --> 00:43:48,800
team human for a number of different

1176
00:43:52,710 --> 00:43:49,920
reasons

1177
00:43:54,950 --> 00:43:52,720
an obvious one of which is they offer us

1178
00:43:56,950 --> 00:43:54,960
ethical and ethical ethical frameworks

1179
00:43:58,470 --> 00:43:56,960
for which to make sense of the choices

1180
00:44:02,230 --> 00:43:58,480
that we make

1181
00:44:04,069 --> 00:44:02,240
uh breath by breath alex that define us

1182
00:44:05,430 --> 00:44:04,079
and as we move through the world you

1183
00:44:08,550 --> 00:44:05,440
know um

1184
00:44:09,430 --> 00:44:08,560
yeah this is so interesting jump in

1185
00:44:10,790 --> 00:44:09,440
either

1186
00:44:13,990 --> 00:44:10,800
it will let up

1187
00:44:16,790 --> 00:44:14,000
do a little riff on uh on whim and sure

1188
00:44:19,750 --> 00:44:16,800
how he fits into the because i think

1189
00:44:21,510 --> 00:44:19,760
i i reference him all the time in some

1190
00:44:23,589 --> 00:44:21,520
ways that people don't exactly connect

1191
00:44:26,150 --> 00:44:23,599
to but i think it connects to this in

1192
00:44:29,190 --> 00:44:26,160
some ways yeah so so for folks who don't

1193
00:44:31,750 --> 00:44:29,200
know wim hof is now 63 years old living

1194
00:44:34,150 --> 00:44:31,760
in the netherlands he is a

1195
00:44:36,309 --> 00:44:34,160
three things about whim one is he is he

1196
00:44:38,950 --> 00:44:36,319
is a superhuman athlete i think he holds

1197
00:44:40,950 --> 00:44:38,960
27 now world's records for feats of

1198
00:44:42,630 --> 00:44:40,960
human endurance most famously swimming

1199
00:44:44,390 --> 00:44:42,640
under an ice glacier

1200
00:44:45,270 --> 00:44:44,400
longer on a single breath than any other

1201
00:44:47,990 --> 00:44:45,280
human

1202
00:44:49,750 --> 00:44:48,000
second he's subjected his own body and

1203
00:44:53,349 --> 00:44:49,760
his own method which i'll tell you about

1204
00:44:55,750 --> 00:44:53,359
in a moment to the rigors of lab science

1205
00:44:58,230 --> 00:44:55,760
and he has proven in the lab with

1206
00:45:00,069 --> 00:44:58,240
scientists what the mystics i think have

1207
00:45:02,230 --> 00:45:00,079
understood for a long time which is we

1208
00:45:04,550 --> 00:45:02,240
humans are capable

1209
00:45:06,309 --> 00:45:04,560
by cultivating a conscious

1210
00:45:09,270 --> 00:45:06,319
there's that word again conscious

1211
00:45:12,230 --> 00:45:09,280
strategic awareness of our breathing we

1212
00:45:14,870 --> 00:45:12,240
are capable of influencing not only our

1213
00:45:16,470 --> 00:45:14,880
immune system but our autonomic

1214
00:45:18,710 --> 00:45:16,480
nervous system

1215
00:45:20,790 --> 00:45:18,720
which science claimed to be impossible

1216
00:45:23,670 --> 00:45:20,800
until about 12 years ago when the

1217
00:45:25,750 --> 00:45:23,680
experiments began at radbud university

1218
00:45:28,710 --> 00:45:25,760
in the netherlands and finally to your

1219
00:45:30,309 --> 00:45:28,720
near-death experience uh point alex and

1220
00:45:32,710 --> 00:45:30,319
your your section in the spoke about

1221
00:45:34,710 --> 00:45:32,720
that was so fascinating um

1222
00:45:37,510 --> 00:45:34,720
wim um

1223
00:45:40,150 --> 00:45:37,520
suffered horrific personal tragedy at

1224
00:45:42,390 --> 00:45:40,160
the age of 38 his own his first wife

1225
00:45:45,030 --> 00:45:42,400
took her own life

1226
00:45:47,030 --> 00:45:45,040
and left him with four little children

1227
00:45:49,510 --> 00:45:47,040
and the way wim tells the story in his

1228
00:45:52,230 --> 00:45:49,520
grief and suffering and to navigate this

1229
00:45:53,990 --> 00:45:52,240
tragedy he returned to the cold and he

1230
00:45:55,990 --> 00:45:54,000
returned to the breath

1231
00:45:59,750 --> 00:45:56,000
which he had been experimenting with for

1232
00:46:02,230 --> 00:45:59,760
many many years and and credits the now

1233
00:46:04,390 --> 00:46:02,240
famous wim hof method

1234
00:46:06,550 --> 00:46:04,400
with literally saving his life

1235
00:46:08,950 --> 00:46:06,560
and and his family's life

1236
00:46:11,829 --> 00:46:08,960
after that horrific experience and this

1237
00:46:13,910 --> 00:46:11,839
was gosh almost 30 years ago for him now

1238
00:46:16,550 --> 00:46:13,920
wim is a seeker he is a spiritual

1239
00:46:20,069 --> 00:46:16,560
questor he has put together in a very

1240
00:46:22,309 --> 00:46:20,079
neat three pillar package

1241
00:46:24,550 --> 00:46:22,319
what we call the wim hof method i think

1242
00:46:27,349 --> 00:46:24,560
a powerful protocol

1243
00:46:29,670 --> 00:46:27,359
for cultivating consciousness within us

1244
00:46:31,270 --> 00:46:29,680
to this point and kind of staving off

1245
00:46:32,950 --> 00:46:31,280
what alex i think you so beautifully

1246
00:46:34,950 --> 00:46:32,960
criticized in your book which is this

1247
00:46:36,710 --> 00:46:34,960
notion that we're just lumbering robots

1248
00:46:37,750 --> 00:46:36,720
we're you know flesh and blood meat

1249
00:46:39,910 --> 00:46:37,760
puppets

1250
00:46:43,109 --> 00:46:39,920
um and the method is very simple number

1251
00:46:45,829 --> 00:46:43,119
one we practice mindset and commitment

1252
00:46:47,829 --> 00:46:45,839
through pillar number two daily hormetic

1253
00:46:51,270 --> 00:46:47,839
breath work aggressive breath work we

1254
00:46:53,589 --> 00:46:51,280
light our inner fire with the breath as

1255
00:46:55,510 --> 00:46:53,599
to use the tumor

1256
00:46:58,309 --> 00:46:55,520
the ancient tumor practice

1257
00:47:00,150 --> 00:46:58,319
of of inner fire and then number three

1258
00:47:02,150 --> 00:47:00,160
we go into the cold we were talking

1259
00:47:04,150 --> 00:47:02,160
about this offline alex we go into the

1260
00:47:06,790 --> 00:47:04,160
cold cold showers

1261
00:47:09,670 --> 00:47:06,800
ice baths as a hormetic tool to

1262
00:47:12,550 --> 00:47:09,680
cultivate psychological resilience as

1263
00:47:14,230 --> 00:47:12,560
well as resilience of mind and body so

1264
00:47:16,069 --> 00:47:14,240
that's the wim hof method and wim would

1265
00:47:17,430 --> 00:47:16,079
be the first to say nature i'll do my

1266
00:47:18,470 --> 00:47:17,440
best dutch accent

1267
00:47:24,630 --> 00:47:18,480
nature

1268
00:47:26,309 --> 00:47:24,640
james nestor who just wrote this

1269
00:47:28,230 --> 00:47:26,319
beautiful book breath the new science of

1270
00:47:29,990 --> 00:47:28,240
a lost art who's a wim hofer and very

1271
00:47:32,470 --> 00:47:30,000
interested in breathing and and really

1272
00:47:34,549 --> 00:47:32,480
has put breathing back on the map

1273
00:47:37,510 --> 00:47:34,559
maybe more than any other human other

1274
00:47:40,710 --> 00:47:37,520
than maybe whim um james nestor likes to

1275
00:47:43,270 --> 00:47:40,720
say the further we get from nature

1276
00:47:45,030 --> 00:47:43,280
the sicker we become the further we get

1277
00:47:47,030 --> 00:47:45,040
from nature the sicker we become and

1278
00:47:49,510 --> 00:47:47,040
this of course ties directly back into

1279
00:47:52,390 --> 00:47:49,520
consciousness because when you are awake

1280
00:47:54,230 --> 00:47:52,400
and alive and breathing and moving

1281
00:47:56,950 --> 00:47:54,240
through the world you recognize through

1282
00:47:59,349 --> 00:47:56,960
the power of our breath that we are not

1283
00:48:00,870 --> 00:47:59,359
only in this beautiful dance with team

1284
00:48:03,349 --> 00:48:00,880
human all of us together we're

1285
00:48:04,870 --> 00:48:03,359
conspiring we're breathing together but

1286
00:48:06,870 --> 00:48:04,880
we're actually in this

1287
00:48:08,790 --> 00:48:06,880
stunningly beautiful dance with the rest

1288
00:48:11,990 --> 00:48:08,800
of living creation

1289
00:48:14,950 --> 00:48:12,000
and it's happening 20 to 25 000 times a

1290
00:48:17,349 --> 00:48:14,960
day every time we inhale

1291
00:48:20,390 --> 00:48:17,359
and we exhale

1292
00:48:22,710 --> 00:48:20,400
we are whether we realize it or not

1293
00:48:24,710 --> 00:48:22,720
we are in this reciprocal dance of

1294
00:48:26,470 --> 00:48:24,720
gratitude with the rest of living

1295
00:48:29,270 --> 00:48:26,480
creation and it is overwhelmingly

1296
00:48:31,349 --> 00:48:29,280
beautiful and it makes me cry

1297
00:48:34,230 --> 00:48:31,359
i oh that's so cool

1298
00:48:36,470 --> 00:48:34,240
um so there's so many points to to riff

1299
00:48:37,190 --> 00:48:36,480
on there and um

1300
00:48:39,829 --> 00:48:37,200
so

1301
00:48:41,750 --> 00:48:39,839
my experience with wim when i first

1302
00:48:43,190 --> 00:48:41,760
encountered him

1303
00:48:45,750 --> 00:48:43,200
was

1304
00:48:47,030 --> 00:48:45,760
one you know skeptical

1305
00:48:48,870 --> 00:48:47,040
and then the more i looked you're not

1306
00:48:50,549 --> 00:48:48,880
the only one yeah

1307
00:48:53,990 --> 00:48:50,559
i was also drawn to it though because

1308
00:48:56,630 --> 00:48:54,000
i've been a long-time yoga practitioner

1309
00:48:58,870 --> 00:48:56,640
you know and my experience with yoga was

1310
00:49:01,589 --> 00:48:58,880
i did it for years and never really

1311
00:49:03,109 --> 00:49:01,599
understood the breath thing you know

1312
00:49:06,150 --> 00:49:03,119
and then

1313
00:49:09,030 --> 00:49:06,160
once i got turned down to pranayama and

1314
00:49:11,430 --> 00:49:09,040
then also just how my breath could be

1315
00:49:14,150 --> 00:49:11,440
operating inside my practice just on a

1316
00:49:16,630 --> 00:49:14,160
regular basis it really changed things a

1317
00:49:17,430 --> 00:49:16,640
lot for me so i was very open to that

1318
00:49:19,430 --> 00:49:17,440
now

1319
00:49:21,510 --> 00:49:19,440
the the key and i was also open to

1320
00:49:23,589 --> 00:49:21,520
meditation the turning point i always

1321
00:49:24,390 --> 00:49:23,599
remember from from whim and no one ever

1322
00:49:27,270 --> 00:49:24,400
uh

1323
00:49:30,549 --> 00:49:27,280
always when i was like like you remember

1324
00:49:33,829 --> 00:49:30,559
you've heard it but when i heard wim say

1325
00:49:37,510 --> 00:49:33,839
i hate the freaking cold

1326
00:49:40,230 --> 00:49:37,520
i was like oh this is a yoga thing

1327
00:49:43,430 --> 00:49:40,240
and that is my experience with like the

1328
00:49:45,670 --> 00:49:43,440
ice bath i do the breathing every day

1329
00:49:47,270 --> 00:49:45,680
wouldn't wouldn't miss it it's an

1330
00:49:49,589 --> 00:49:47,280
experience you know there's all that

1331
00:49:53,750 --> 00:49:49,599
thing but the ice bath is such

1332
00:49:56,390 --> 00:49:53,760
a a more profound experience because

1333
00:49:59,270 --> 00:49:56,400
every day that little voice is yammering

1334
00:50:02,069 --> 00:49:59,280
in my head saying you don't have to do

1335
00:50:04,870 --> 00:50:02,079
it today you earned a day off it's a

1336
00:50:08,150 --> 00:50:04,880
skip day it's the whatever

1337
00:50:10,150 --> 00:50:08,160
and it's such a practice it's such a

1338
00:50:13,030 --> 00:50:10,160
it is so physically challenging because

1339
00:50:15,030 --> 00:50:13,040
it's cold every freaking day whim said i

1340
00:50:19,030 --> 00:50:15,040
hate the freaking cold i hate the

1341
00:50:22,790 --> 00:50:20,790
not i don't want to say i'm not in a

1342
00:50:26,309 --> 00:50:22,800
battle with that yammering voice inside

1343
00:50:28,390 --> 00:50:26,319
my head i'm not i am that's the other

1344
00:50:30,150 --> 00:50:28,400
thing eight ball from my other

1345
00:50:31,190 --> 00:50:30,160
yoga master

1346
00:50:36,549 --> 00:50:31,200
uh

1347
00:50:39,270 --> 00:50:36,559
who wrote a couple of books a very

1348
00:50:41,589 --> 00:50:39,280
famous uh guy i love a guy but

1349
00:50:44,309 --> 00:50:41,599
that voice inside my head is like the

1350
00:50:46,069 --> 00:50:44,319
eight ball it just comes up with stuff

1351
00:50:47,270 --> 00:50:46,079
because you turn it and you ask it

1352
00:50:50,309 --> 00:50:47,280
questions

1353
00:50:53,589 --> 00:50:50,319
i am in control i have the sovereignty i

1354
00:50:55,750 --> 00:50:53,599
can go to the cold and what what i love

1355
00:50:58,230 --> 00:50:55,760
about wim too is once i understood him

1356
00:51:00,870 --> 00:50:58,240
as a yogi and i started looking at him

1357
00:51:03,270 --> 00:51:00,880
as a yogi and i started listening to

1358
00:51:05,990 --> 00:51:03,280
what his yoga experience here's a guy 16

1359
00:51:08,790 --> 00:51:06,000
years old he's creating his own yoga

1360
00:51:10,950 --> 00:51:08,800
books tearing out cutting out pictures

1361
00:51:12,150 --> 00:51:10,960
and pasting them and writing stuff that

1362
00:51:13,109 --> 00:51:12,160
is so

1363
00:51:14,870 --> 00:51:13,119
cool

1364
00:51:15,990 --> 00:51:14,880
uh so

1365
00:51:17,910 --> 00:51:16,000
to me

1366
00:51:20,069 --> 00:51:17,920
and this relates in a way to our earlier

1367
00:51:21,190 --> 00:51:20,079
conversation of like love gregory

1368
00:51:23,270 --> 00:51:21,200
shushan

1369
00:51:26,309 --> 00:51:23,280
near-death experiences across time and

1370
00:51:27,750 --> 00:51:26,319
across culture and this proves it

1371
00:51:30,470 --> 00:51:27,760
i also like

1372
00:51:33,750 --> 00:51:30,480
we all do we're drawn to people who are

1373
00:51:36,950 --> 00:51:33,760
inspirational and we draw from them uh

1374
00:51:39,349 --> 00:51:36,960
power and insights and they are the

1375
00:51:42,309 --> 00:51:39,359
giants that we stand on the shoulders of

1376
00:51:43,829 --> 00:51:42,319
wim hof is such a person so

1377
00:51:45,589 --> 00:51:43,839
we i learned

1378
00:51:47,750 --> 00:51:45,599
whim is always teaching me lessons you

1379
00:51:50,470 --> 00:51:47,760
know i just every time i go into the

1380
00:51:52,150 --> 00:51:50,480
cold wim is teaching me lessons how was

1381
00:51:54,069 --> 00:51:52,160
that experience for you guys can i just

1382
00:51:55,670 --> 00:51:54,079
yeah look at the word you just used

1383
00:51:58,470 --> 00:51:55,680
inspiring

1384
00:52:00,950 --> 00:51:58,480
alex right conspire means to breathe

1385
00:52:02,309 --> 00:52:00,960
together inspire means literally to

1386
00:52:05,030 --> 00:52:02,319
breathe in

1387
00:52:07,589 --> 00:52:05,040
the life-giving energy of another when

1388
00:52:10,230 --> 00:52:07,599
we say someone is inspirational that's

1389
00:52:13,109 --> 00:52:10,240
what we mean it's like i can breathe in

1390
00:52:15,510 --> 00:52:13,119
this person's energy and it it it

1391
00:52:17,030 --> 00:52:15,520
infuses me with life

1392
00:52:18,790 --> 00:52:17,040
think think how powerful that is now let

1393
00:52:19,670 --> 00:52:18,800
me do my best wim hof on the cold thing

1394
00:52:21,510 --> 00:52:19,680
right

1395
00:52:33,030 --> 00:52:21,520
the cold

1396
00:52:34,390 --> 00:52:33,040
yet

1397
00:52:39,430 --> 00:52:34,400
righteous

1398
00:52:40,790 --> 00:52:39,440
and you're absolutely right the the cold

1399
00:52:43,030 --> 00:52:40,800
is a unique

1400
00:52:45,510 --> 00:52:43,040
hormetic tool and by hermetic tool

1401
00:52:48,470 --> 00:52:45,520
hormesis is the biological concept that

1402
00:52:50,309 --> 00:52:48,480
simply means voluntary stress

1403
00:52:53,270 --> 00:52:50,319
regularly applied

1404
00:52:55,990 --> 00:52:53,280
to build resilience of body and mind and

1405
00:52:57,990 --> 00:52:56,000
spirit so when we voluntarily go into

1406
00:52:59,910 --> 00:52:58,000
the cold

1407
00:53:01,910 --> 00:52:59,920
or when we voluntarily lie down on a

1408
00:53:05,589 --> 00:53:01,920
yoga mat and breathe three or four

1409
00:53:07,670 --> 00:53:05,599
rounds of tumor hostile breathing when

1410
00:53:08,870 --> 00:53:07,680
we volunteer to do that

1411
00:53:11,430 --> 00:53:08,880
we are

1412
00:53:15,430 --> 00:53:11,440
literally sort of cultivating this

1413
00:53:16,950 --> 00:53:15,440
conscious again conscious capacity

1414
00:53:19,990 --> 00:53:16,960
uh as humans

1415
00:53:22,309 --> 00:53:20,000
to optimize ourselves and in so doing

1416
00:53:24,230 --> 00:53:22,319
that begins to ripple out into our lives

1417
00:53:26,549 --> 00:53:24,240
and inspire

1418
00:53:28,950 --> 00:53:26,559
and as we conspire with others we

1419
00:53:30,470 --> 00:53:28,960
inspire others and are inspired by them

1420
00:53:31,829 --> 00:53:30,480
and that's why whim i think is so

1421
00:53:33,030 --> 00:53:31,839
magnetic

1422
00:53:34,790 --> 00:53:33,040
everyone who meets them i haven't met

1423
00:53:37,750 --> 00:53:34,800
him yet i will but everyone who meets

1424
00:53:39,349 --> 00:53:37,760
him says you know he is a wizzy wig

1425
00:53:41,109 --> 00:53:39,359
character he what you see is what you

1426
00:53:44,630 --> 00:53:41,119
get he is an authentic

1427
00:53:47,670 --> 00:53:44,640
human across the board warts faults

1428
00:53:49,910 --> 00:53:47,680
um virtues world records

1429
00:53:51,430 --> 00:53:49,920
and that's you know that's all we can be

1430
00:53:52,710 --> 00:53:51,440
at the end of the day it's like all we

1431
00:53:55,670 --> 00:53:52,720
can be is

1432
00:53:56,470 --> 00:53:55,680
is is who we are showing up in real

1433
00:53:59,270 --> 00:53:56,480
space

1434
00:54:01,750 --> 00:53:59,280
wrestling with good and evil

1435
00:54:03,510 --> 00:54:01,760
and cultivating this conscious capacity

1436
00:54:07,750 --> 00:54:03,520
to try and be

1437
00:54:09,750 --> 00:54:07,760
the best humans we can be and it begins

1438
00:54:11,430 --> 00:54:09,760
i think with the breath

1439
00:54:15,030 --> 00:54:11,440
only because the breath is the most

1440
00:54:18,870 --> 00:54:17,030
all right awesome i just really love

1441
00:54:21,109 --> 00:54:18,880
that you know rob i'm not super familiar

1442
00:54:23,109 --> 00:54:21,119
with the wim hof um but hearing you talk

1443
00:54:24,950 --> 00:54:23,119
about the cold you know it strikes me

1444
00:54:27,270 --> 00:54:24,960
that we we talk about cold as if coal is

1445
00:54:28,390 --> 00:54:27,280
a thing but cold is just an absence of

1446
00:54:32,950 --> 00:54:28,400
heat

1447
00:54:33,829 --> 00:54:32,960
so does that have to do with kind of

1448
00:54:35,829 --> 00:54:33,839
like

1449
00:54:38,069 --> 00:54:35,839
putting yourself sort of in isolation

1450
00:54:40,470 --> 00:54:38,079
from like standard like the energy that

1451
00:54:42,069 --> 00:54:40,480
you would typically experience like

1452
00:54:44,069 --> 00:54:42,079
everything that's such a cool question

1453
00:54:45,430 --> 00:54:44,079
i've never thought of that but my

1454
00:54:49,430 --> 00:54:45,440
immediate

1455
00:54:52,390 --> 00:54:49,440
question well first of all you can go

1456
00:54:53,589 --> 00:54:52,400
into the cold with other humans

1457
00:54:55,990 --> 00:54:53,599
and that's a different experience

1458
00:54:58,230 --> 00:54:56,000
because you will find inspiration in the

1459
00:54:59,190 --> 00:54:58,240
conspiracy in the cold

1460
00:55:01,270 --> 00:54:59,200
right

1461
00:55:03,190 --> 00:55:01,280
just like when you breathe

1462
00:55:05,190 --> 00:55:03,200
in the presence of other humans even a

1463
00:55:06,630 --> 00:55:05,200
yoga class let's say it's a different

1464
00:55:09,910 --> 00:55:06,640
experience when you're together

1465
00:55:11,670 --> 00:55:09,920
exchanging that energy those electrons

1466
00:55:13,750 --> 00:55:11,680
right with one another

1467
00:55:14,549 --> 00:55:13,760
but casper um

1468
00:55:17,190 --> 00:55:14,559
so

1469
00:55:18,829 --> 00:55:17,200
yes the cold is an absence of heat and

1470
00:55:20,789 --> 00:55:18,839
what it does

1471
00:55:23,030 --> 00:55:20,799
hormetically i mean there's all kinds of

1472
00:55:24,950 --> 00:55:23,040
neurophysiological things going on and

1473
00:55:27,190 --> 00:55:24,960
psychological things going on but but

1474
00:55:29,670 --> 00:55:27,200
but you're actually

1475
00:55:32,390 --> 00:55:29,680
your mind and body and spirit are are

1476
00:55:33,670 --> 00:55:32,400
cultivating a new energetic presence in

1477
00:55:36,150 --> 00:55:33,680
the cold

1478
00:55:38,069 --> 00:55:36,160
to hold that absence of heat and energy

1479
00:55:39,430 --> 00:55:38,079
at bay

1480
00:55:41,190 --> 00:55:39,440
you're like you're expanding outward

1481
00:55:41,910 --> 00:55:41,200
from within yeah it's an amazing thing

1482
00:55:43,030 --> 00:55:41,920
like

1483
00:55:44,710 --> 00:55:43,040
and alex you may have had this

1484
00:55:47,109 --> 00:55:44,720
experience when you get into it it's

1485
00:55:50,150 --> 00:55:47,119
easiest to to witness this in an actual

1486
00:55:51,829 --> 00:55:50,160
ice bath with cubes right or whatever

1487
00:55:53,109 --> 00:55:51,839
when you get in the ice bath and you're

1488
00:55:54,789 --> 00:55:53,119
up to your neck

1489
00:55:57,190 --> 00:55:54,799
in ice

1490
00:56:00,549 --> 00:55:57,200
and you're breathing

1491
00:56:06,150 --> 00:56:03,990
the ice begins to breathe with you

1492
00:56:08,069 --> 00:56:06,160
and your body very quickly builds

1493
00:56:11,430 --> 00:56:08,079
especially if you don't move at all your

1494
00:56:14,230 --> 00:56:11,440
body builds this thermal heat cone

1495
00:56:16,309 --> 00:56:14,240
around you to protect you in the ice and

1496
00:56:20,230 --> 00:56:16,319
then that heat cone it's so cool it

1497
00:56:21,190 --> 00:56:20,240
begins to expand outwards

1498
00:56:23,349 --> 00:56:21,200
and so

1499
00:56:24,069 --> 00:56:23,359
when i do trainings with you know groups

1500
00:56:27,829 --> 00:56:24,079
of

1501
00:56:29,589 --> 00:56:27,839
is you know we have to keep feeding we

1502
00:56:31,349 --> 00:56:29,599
have to keep feeding ice into the barrel

1503
00:56:32,150 --> 00:56:31,359
of course because every human that comes

1504
00:56:33,990 --> 00:56:32,160
in

1505
00:56:36,630 --> 00:56:34,000
builds that thermal cone of energy

1506
00:56:37,910 --> 00:56:36,640
expands it outward and the ice melts

1507
00:56:39,750 --> 00:56:37,920
right so it's like oh we got to dump

1508
00:56:41,829 --> 00:56:39,760
more icing why because humans are

1509
00:56:42,950 --> 00:56:41,839
resonating in the ice and they're

1510
00:56:45,109 --> 00:56:42,960
holding

1511
00:56:46,950 --> 00:56:45,119
heat and energy and they're expanding

1512
00:56:49,109 --> 00:56:46,960
their capacities

1513
00:56:50,390 --> 00:56:49,119
through this hormetic practice i never

1514
00:56:51,910 --> 00:56:50,400
thought of it that way before but that's

1515
00:56:53,589 --> 00:56:51,920
what's going on

1516
00:56:56,150 --> 00:56:53,599
do you ever go out

1517
00:56:58,630 --> 00:56:56,160
you're in vermont i mean i just imagine

1518
00:57:01,270 --> 00:56:58,640
you know you guys going out in the woods

1519
00:57:03,270 --> 00:57:01,280
and doing it oh yeah they're

1520
00:57:05,190 --> 00:57:03,280
yeah yeah i i live

1521
00:57:07,750 --> 00:57:05,200
in brandon too we live in a in a

1522
00:57:10,309 --> 00:57:07,760
beautiful river valley named after the

1523
00:57:12,150 --> 00:57:10,319
mad river the mad river valley and

1524
00:57:13,589 --> 00:57:12,160
right about now alex it's getting a

1525
00:57:16,150 --> 00:57:13,599
little too warm

1526
00:57:18,789 --> 00:57:16,160
uh summer is about to be here

1527
00:57:21,510 --> 00:57:18,799
um it's the water is still cold but it's

1528
00:57:24,150 --> 00:57:21,520
not quite as cold as we like it to be if

1529
00:57:25,510 --> 00:57:24,160
we're looking for a mises but oh yeah so

1530
00:57:27,270 --> 00:57:25,520
when you come visit us have you been to

1531
00:57:28,789 --> 00:57:27,280
vermont has he been in vermont no i i

1532
00:57:31,190 --> 00:57:28,799
would love to oh you got to come and

1533
00:57:33,510 --> 00:57:31,200
when i come to san diego so my my

1534
00:57:35,030 --> 00:57:33,520
business partner at our peak flow

1535
00:57:37,589 --> 00:57:35,040
breathworks startup

1536
00:57:38,870 --> 00:57:37,599
lindsey trubia lives up in encinitas

1537
00:57:40,549 --> 00:57:38,880
just north of you

1538
00:57:43,030 --> 00:57:40,559
awesome so i'm in san diego quite a bit

1539
00:57:45,270 --> 00:57:43,040
and she has a super cool ice rig and

1540
00:57:47,750 --> 00:57:45,280
sauna and so if you can spare a few

1541
00:57:50,069 --> 00:57:47,760
hours come on up and we'll we'll uh

1542
00:57:51,030 --> 00:57:50,079
we'll have some ice ice bathing but yeah

1543
00:57:52,710 --> 00:57:51,040
i mean

1544
00:57:54,069 --> 00:57:52,720
it brings us back around i guess i know

1545
00:57:56,549 --> 00:57:54,079
we could talk for hours we should

1546
00:57:58,549 --> 00:57:56,559
probably wrap it up i i i just feel like

1547
00:57:59,829 --> 00:57:58,559
we're warming up we're warming up here

1548
00:58:03,670 --> 00:57:59,839
but

1549
00:58:05,510 --> 00:58:03,680
to your work alex and i hadn't fully

1550
00:58:07,349 --> 00:58:05,520
appreciated until this conversation i

1551
00:58:08,950 --> 00:58:07,359
think with the three of us central to

1552
00:58:11,270 --> 00:58:08,960
your work is

1553
00:58:14,710 --> 00:58:11,280
the importance i think the vitality of

1554
00:58:15,510 --> 00:58:14,720
humans cultivating conscious awareness

1555
00:58:17,750 --> 00:58:15,520
of

1556
00:58:20,069 --> 00:58:17,760
our consciousness

1557
00:58:22,390 --> 00:58:20,079
at a time when there is a war i think we

1558
00:58:23,990 --> 00:58:22,400
probably all agree that there's a war

1559
00:58:25,670 --> 00:58:24,000
being waged

1560
00:58:28,069 --> 00:58:25,680
on the notion

1561
00:58:30,630 --> 00:58:28,079
of human consciousness and and what it

1562
00:58:33,109 --> 00:58:30,640
can do you pull up on that though

1563
00:58:35,910 --> 00:58:33,119
a little bit because because the the

1564
00:58:37,990 --> 00:58:35,920
play back and forth that um i really

1565
00:58:39,510 --> 00:58:38,000
love and i think has parallels with the

1566
00:58:41,910 --> 00:58:39,520
work that you're doing and we should

1567
00:58:45,430 --> 00:58:41,920
find a way to expand this conversation

1568
00:58:48,309 --> 00:58:45,440
not only is once not enough but you guys

1569
00:58:50,710 --> 00:58:48,319
are are special people and the dialogue

1570
00:58:52,789 --> 00:58:50,720
that you're creating is just fantastic

1571
00:58:55,349 --> 00:58:52,799
and i want to find a way to

1572
00:58:58,230 --> 00:58:55,359
continue it on a regular basis whether

1573
00:59:00,470 --> 00:58:58,240
it's part of your project or

1574
00:59:02,309 --> 00:59:00,480
part of my project or whatever but what

1575
00:59:05,430 --> 00:59:02,319
i was going to say is

1576
00:59:07,829 --> 00:59:05,440
the interesting interplay for me

1577
00:59:10,950 --> 00:59:07,839
is kind of the classic it almost sounds

1578
00:59:12,789 --> 00:59:10,960
trite but when we point outward you know

1579
00:59:15,750 --> 00:59:12,799
we have three fingers pointing back to

1580
00:59:17,190 --> 00:59:15,760
us when we point outward and someone is

1581
00:59:19,750 --> 00:59:17,200
trying to

1582
00:59:22,230 --> 00:59:19,760
uh is in a battle to kind of control

1583
00:59:25,030 --> 00:59:22,240
consciousness like that yeah i meet that

1584
00:59:27,349 --> 00:59:25,040
guy every fricking day

1585
00:59:30,069 --> 00:59:27,359
when i go into the right you're nodding

1586
00:59:33,990 --> 00:59:30,079
your head i meet that guy every day and

1587
00:59:36,150 --> 00:59:34,000
that's why i go into the cold

1588
00:59:37,349 --> 00:59:36,160
that's why i go there right i can't do

1589
00:59:38,390 --> 00:59:37,359
it nearly as well as you know that was

1590
00:59:39,349 --> 00:59:38,400
good but

1591
00:59:41,670 --> 00:59:39,359
yeah

1592
00:59:44,950 --> 00:59:41,680
once we once we understand that i think

1593
00:59:48,230 --> 00:59:44,960
it gives us in my opinion it gives us a

1594
00:59:49,430 --> 00:59:48,240
better position to understand

1595
00:59:51,910 --> 00:59:49,440
why

1596
00:59:53,750 --> 00:59:51,920
bill gates is doing such uh horrible

1597
00:59:56,549 --> 00:59:53,760
things and why he was on epstein's plane

1598
00:59:58,230 --> 00:59:56,559
so many times and you know why

1599
01:00:00,950 --> 00:59:58,240
you know like one of my things is we're

1600
01:00:02,230 --> 01:00:00,960
all leading rich spiritual lives that

1601
01:00:04,309 --> 01:00:02,240
doesn't mean we're all leading good

1602
01:00:06,789 --> 01:00:04,319
spiritual lives but we're all leading

1603
01:00:09,109 --> 01:00:06,799
rich spiritual lives and the yammering

1604
01:00:10,870 --> 01:00:09,119
that's going on in our head imagine the

1605
01:00:13,349 --> 01:00:10,880
yammering that's going on in the head of

1606
01:00:14,950 --> 01:00:13,359
that person who is the serial killer you

1607
01:00:16,630 --> 01:00:14,960
know and

1608
01:00:18,390 --> 01:00:16,640
we're all that you know so we've gone

1609
01:00:19,990 --> 01:00:18,400
really broad in this conversation i'm

1610
01:00:20,870 --> 01:00:20,000
wondering like as we wrap up can we

1611
01:00:22,950 --> 01:00:20,880
maybe

1612
01:00:24,549 --> 01:00:22,960
um narrow it down to like a few things

1613
01:00:26,549 --> 01:00:24,559
that we could focus on as we move

1614
01:00:28,230 --> 01:00:26,559
forward and we try to like discern

1615
01:00:30,390 --> 01:00:28,240
information and i know you're fond of

1616
01:00:31,589 --> 01:00:30,400
saying follow the data and there's stuff

1617
01:00:33,829 --> 01:00:31,599
there's a funny meme that i've seen

1618
01:00:35,510 --> 01:00:33,839
circulating recently that's um i keep

1619
01:00:37,510 --> 01:00:35,520
following the data and i f and i wind up

1620
01:00:41,030 --> 01:00:37,520
at the money

1621
01:00:43,670 --> 01:00:41,040
and so i think i think qui bono qui bono

1622
01:00:45,349 --> 01:00:43,680
is another um like useful

1623
01:00:47,109 --> 01:00:45,359
tool like who benefits i think that

1624
01:00:48,870 --> 01:00:47,119
that's something that we can always ask

1625
01:00:51,030 --> 01:00:48,880
ourselves like when we're trying to

1626
01:00:52,789 --> 01:00:51,040
discern information like okay what is

1627
01:00:54,549 --> 01:00:52,799
the data saying follow the data where

1628
01:00:56,549 --> 01:00:54,559
that leads but also

1629
01:00:58,630 --> 01:00:56,559
who benefits from

1630
01:01:00,789 --> 01:00:58,640
this result that's being returned and

1631
01:01:02,789 --> 01:01:00,799
could that be influencing what i'm

1632
01:01:06,230 --> 01:01:02,799
reading um do you have any other insight

1633
01:01:08,549 --> 01:01:06,240
as to like tools that we can use like um

1634
01:01:10,150 --> 01:01:08,559
like any kind of mental like gymnastics

1635
01:01:11,349 --> 01:01:10,160
that we can do to kind of work our way

1636
01:01:13,510 --> 01:01:11,359
through the

1637
01:01:16,309 --> 01:01:13,520
you know the minefield that is 21st

1638
01:01:18,549 --> 01:01:16,319
century intellectual life

1639
01:01:19,750 --> 01:01:18,559
well the one thing i'd key off of is the

1640
01:01:21,589 --> 01:01:19,760
very first thing you said in that

1641
01:01:23,589 --> 01:01:21,599
brandon is you know oh we're too broad

1642
01:01:25,510 --> 01:01:23,599
now we have to go uh you know down to

1643
01:01:27,589 --> 01:01:25,520
the microscope telescope kind of thing

1644
01:01:28,870 --> 01:01:27,599
and i'd say yeah that is a problem but

1645
01:01:30,710 --> 01:01:28,880
we have to embrace it because that's

1646
01:01:33,190 --> 01:01:30,720
what we always have to do right we have

1647
01:01:36,069 --> 01:01:33,200
to go down and then we have to step back

1648
01:01:37,190 --> 01:01:36,079
and look a bigger picture so you know

1649
01:01:42,950 --> 01:01:37,200
follow

1650
01:01:45,109 --> 01:01:42,960
is awesome but then we have to

1651
01:01:47,349 --> 01:01:45,119
juxtapose that with the fact that there

1652
01:01:49,910 --> 01:01:47,359
are people that are clearly

1653
01:01:52,710 --> 01:01:49,920
beyond that in a way that money couldn't

1654
01:01:53,510 --> 01:01:52,720
possibly in any kind of rational logical

1655
01:01:55,670 --> 01:01:53,520
way

1656
01:01:57,670 --> 01:01:55,680
be a factor you know you have billions

1657
01:01:59,990 --> 01:01:57,680
of dollars or trillions of dollars that

1658
01:02:01,750 --> 01:02:00,000
doesn't probably play out and

1659
01:02:03,510 --> 01:02:01,760
then i think there's also the the

1660
01:02:05,670 --> 01:02:03,520
paradigm thing and then there's also the

1661
01:02:07,510 --> 01:02:05,680
psych all the psychological facts

1662
01:02:10,230 --> 01:02:07,520
and then there's all the totalitarian

1663
01:02:11,670 --> 01:02:10,240
social factors so i think it's always

1664
01:02:14,549 --> 01:02:11,680
you know

1665
01:02:18,230 --> 01:02:14,559
choosing changing our level of focus and

1666
01:02:21,029 --> 01:02:18,240
i would add that at the end it's how do

1667
01:02:22,870 --> 01:02:21,039
i live how do i make decisions that are

1668
01:02:25,829 --> 01:02:22,880
better for me

1669
01:02:27,190 --> 01:02:25,839
on my spiritual journey so that i can

1670
01:02:28,789 --> 01:02:27,200
then

1671
01:02:32,390 --> 01:02:28,799
make it better for

1672
01:02:33,990 --> 01:02:32,400
my family not be such a jerk to my wife

1673
01:02:35,349 --> 01:02:34,000
stop making all the mistakes i make with

1674
01:02:38,069 --> 01:02:35,359
my kids

1675
01:02:39,589 --> 01:02:38,079
and then maybe even reach out to people

1676
01:02:40,950 --> 01:02:39,599
in my community my neighbors you know

1677
01:02:43,109 --> 01:02:40,960
what i mean

1678
01:02:45,109 --> 01:02:43,119
well and the word spirit

1679
01:02:47,910 --> 01:02:45,119
the word spiritual like the word

1680
01:02:50,710 --> 01:02:47,920
pranayama which you used earlier alex

1681
01:02:51,750 --> 01:02:50,720
that the notion in in ancient sanskrit i

1682
01:02:55,270 --> 01:02:51,760
believe

1683
01:02:58,309 --> 01:02:55,280
of of the breath i think the the

1684
01:02:59,990 --> 01:02:58,319
the indian yogic tradition is the oldest

1685
01:03:01,270 --> 01:03:00,000
i think that we know of historically

1686
01:03:03,270 --> 01:03:01,280
that

1687
01:03:05,829 --> 01:03:03,280
cultivated kind of an awareness of

1688
01:03:06,710 --> 01:03:05,839
breath and thus consciousness right

1689
01:03:08,950 --> 01:03:06,720
um

1690
01:03:11,430 --> 01:03:08,960
spirit means more or less kind of the

1691
01:03:13,829 --> 01:03:11,440
same thing so to live a spiritual life

1692
01:03:16,630 --> 01:03:13,839
really kind of means i think to live

1693
01:03:17,910 --> 01:03:16,640
kind of a consciously breath-focused

1694
01:03:20,309 --> 01:03:17,920
life

1695
01:03:22,950 --> 01:03:20,319
if if i'm if i'm getting that's correct

1696
01:03:24,309 --> 01:03:22,960
and and i i maybe i will close

1697
01:03:25,910 --> 01:03:24,319
just picking up on your point of a

1698
01:03:28,390 --> 01:03:25,920
second ago alex

1699
01:03:31,270 --> 01:03:28,400
i i agree with you it's not that there's

1700
01:03:33,589 --> 01:03:31,280
a an external war being waged on the

1701
01:03:35,430 --> 01:03:33,599
notion of consciousness alone that may

1702
01:03:37,990 --> 01:03:35,440
be true

1703
01:03:40,470 --> 01:03:38,000
but we all as individuals and

1704
01:03:42,230 --> 01:03:40,480
collectively i think struggle

1705
01:03:45,349 --> 01:03:42,240
with the

1706
01:03:48,470 --> 01:03:45,359
with acknowledging the role

1707
01:03:51,270 --> 01:03:48,480
of that consciousness plays

1708
01:03:53,109 --> 01:03:51,280
in how we live our lives

1709
01:03:54,630 --> 01:03:53,119
mind body

1710
01:03:57,109 --> 01:03:54,640
spirit

1711
01:03:59,670 --> 01:03:57,119
you're right it's easy to point out at

1712
01:04:01,589 --> 01:03:59,680
bill gates or jeffrey epstein or you

1713
01:04:04,470 --> 01:04:01,599
know insert your you know demon of

1714
01:04:05,910 --> 01:04:04,480
choice here schwab air schwab the

1715
01:04:07,670 --> 01:04:05,920
schwabians

1716
01:04:09,190 --> 01:04:07,680
but at the end of the day

1717
01:04:10,870 --> 01:04:09,200
um

1718
01:04:13,109 --> 01:04:10,880
our first and most important

1719
01:04:15,309 --> 01:04:13,119
responsibility it seems to me as members

1720
01:04:19,029 --> 01:04:15,319
of the team human tribe is to take

1721
01:04:21,349 --> 01:04:19,039
responsibility for our own

1722
01:04:22,390 --> 01:04:21,359
cultivation of consciousness as you were

1723
01:04:24,630 --> 01:04:22,400
just saying

1724
01:04:27,270 --> 01:04:24,640
and that will ripple outwards

1725
01:04:29,750 --> 01:04:27,280
into our um into our

1726
01:04:31,990 --> 01:04:29,760
marriages and families and communities

1727
01:04:33,430 --> 01:04:32,000
just one other thought um when i uh you

1728
01:04:35,670 --> 01:04:33,440
know i've been in conversation with

1729
01:04:37,750 --> 01:04:35,680
matthias desmod who's a very busy fellow

1730
01:04:39,109 --> 01:04:37,760
these days and and i'm going to ask both

1731
01:04:40,950 --> 01:04:39,119
of you here

1732
01:04:42,870 --> 01:04:40,960
to send me your mailing addresses when

1733
01:04:44,470 --> 01:04:42,880
we hang up and i'm going to see if i can

1734
01:04:46,390 --> 01:04:44,480
get you both copies of this new book

1735
01:04:47,510 --> 01:04:46,400
because it's a really important book and

1736
01:04:49,910 --> 01:04:47,520
alex

1737
01:04:52,630 --> 01:04:49,920
brandon knows this but his book aligns

1738
01:04:54,789 --> 01:04:52,640
beautifully with what you've been up to

1739
01:04:57,349 --> 01:04:54,799
um he really you know his book is a

1740
01:04:59,670 --> 01:04:57,359
critique a historical and psychological

1741
01:05:02,230 --> 01:04:59,680
critique of the materialist

1742
01:05:06,069 --> 01:05:02,240
scientific paradigm

1743
01:05:06,950 --> 01:05:06,079
and his his concept of mass formation

1744
01:05:10,390 --> 01:05:06,960
um

1745
01:05:12,710 --> 01:05:10,400
is but a single chapter in a much larger

1746
01:05:15,349 --> 01:05:12,720
and beautifully written i i think

1747
01:05:18,390 --> 01:05:15,359
um book but i asked him i said so you're

1748
01:05:20,950 --> 01:05:18,400
talking about mass formation matthias

1749
01:05:22,630 --> 01:05:20,960
what role does information play

1750
01:05:24,390 --> 01:05:22,640
information

1751
01:05:28,870 --> 01:05:24,400
to brandon's point of earlier a couple

1752
01:05:29,990 --> 01:05:28,880
of times about data graphs charts words

1753
01:05:31,029 --> 01:05:30,000
phrases

1754
01:05:33,349 --> 01:05:31,039
right

1755
01:05:35,430 --> 01:05:33,359
and matia said you know i don't know

1756
01:05:37,589 --> 01:05:35,440
but it's an important question

1757
01:05:39,510 --> 01:05:37,599
i've been uh for another project i've

1758
01:05:40,309 --> 01:05:39,520
been deep down um

1759
01:05:44,549 --> 01:05:40,319
the

1760
01:05:46,549 --> 01:05:44,559
invented cybernetics

1761
01:05:48,789 --> 01:05:46,559
yeah norbert weiner

1762
01:05:50,870 --> 01:05:48,799
right and um

1763
01:05:51,990 --> 01:05:50,880
and and he

1764
01:05:55,029 --> 01:05:52,000
again we could talk for an hour about

1765
01:05:57,829 --> 01:05:55,039
him but but but he saw all this coming

1766
01:06:01,029 --> 01:05:57,839
in the 1950s and 60s he played a central

1767
01:06:02,309 --> 01:06:01,039
role in inventing cybernetics

1768
01:06:05,430 --> 01:06:02,319
you know bio

1769
01:06:07,510 --> 01:06:05,440
human feedback systems etcetera and then

1770
01:06:09,990 --> 01:06:07,520
he got pulled under into the machine

1771
01:06:12,630 --> 01:06:10,000
well he altered well yeah he stepped

1772
01:06:14,630 --> 01:06:12,640
back from all of that because right

1773
01:06:17,349 --> 01:06:14,640
cybernetics fell into some pretty

1774
01:06:18,950 --> 01:06:17,359
interesting hands did it not anyway so

1775
01:06:20,470 --> 01:06:18,960
um and there's a lot of parallels i

1776
01:06:22,230 --> 01:06:20,480
think between cybernetics and

1777
01:06:25,190 --> 01:06:22,240
consciousness and breath work and

1778
01:06:27,270 --> 01:06:25,200
breathing and um good and evil and all

1779
01:06:30,069 --> 01:06:27,280
of this but i guess we have to leave it

1780
01:06:32,789 --> 01:06:30,079
here i'm gonna stop talking um brandon

1781
01:06:34,390 --> 01:06:32,799
any final words and then alex any final

1782
01:06:36,630 --> 01:06:34,400
things to leave us with

1783
01:06:38,150 --> 01:06:36,640
alex it's been a pleasure um usually i

1784
01:06:40,549 --> 01:06:38,160
listen to you in audio form so it's cool

1785
01:06:42,470 --> 01:06:40,559
to see your face and uh thank you for

1786
01:06:45,430 --> 01:06:42,480
joining us

1787
01:06:47,349 --> 01:06:45,440
thank you guys it's a very exciting just

1788
01:06:50,069 --> 01:06:47,359
invigorating the energy of this

1789
01:06:52,549 --> 01:06:50,079
conversation i just want to keep it

1790
01:06:55,750 --> 01:06:52,559
going we have to do more this is what i

1791
01:06:57,910 --> 01:06:55,760
always call a level three conversation

1792
01:07:00,150 --> 01:06:57,920
and we just don't get those enough and

1793
01:07:02,150 --> 01:07:00,160
that's my reluctance with you know

1794
01:07:04,710 --> 01:07:02,160
reaching out to authors

1795
01:07:06,470 --> 01:07:04,720
it's creating the right dynamic where we

1796
01:07:10,150 --> 01:07:06,480
can really get past you love the book

1797
01:07:12,630 --> 01:07:10,160
people go by the book now let's talk

1798
01:07:14,870 --> 01:07:12,640
yes and and that's where we were able to

1799
01:07:17,109 --> 01:07:14,880
jump immediately

1800
01:07:18,549 --> 01:07:17,119
this content this hour content is going

1801
01:07:20,390 --> 01:07:18,559
to be super dense

1802
01:07:21,510 --> 01:07:20,400
uh i'm going to put it on on my channel

1803
01:07:23,750 --> 01:07:21,520
but this is

1804
01:07:25,589 --> 01:07:23,760
this is the conversation the dialogue i

1805
01:07:28,710 --> 01:07:25,599
want to engage in so i thank you guys so

1806
01:07:30,630 --> 01:07:28,720
much for doing it and let's find ways to

1807
01:07:33,430 --> 01:07:30,640
to do more of it because there isn't

1808
01:07:35,670 --> 01:07:33,440
this kind of stuff out there enough

1809
01:07:37,910 --> 01:07:35,680
completely agreed well brandon alex

1810
01:07:39,510 --> 01:07:37,920
thank you both i'll do a quick sign off

1811
01:07:41,190 --> 01:07:39,520
and we'll keep the conversation going

1812
01:07:43,190 --> 01:07:41,200
offline and return

1813
01:07:46,789 --> 01:07:43,200
as soon as we can make that happen

1814
01:07:50,470 --> 01:07:48,309
you've been watching listening to plan v

1815
01:07:52,230 --> 01:07:50,480
tv the show about vermont independence

1816
01:07:53,829 --> 01:07:52,240
i'm dr rob williams joined in studio

1817
01:07:56,069 --> 01:07:53,839
with brandon zerlino and our very

1818
01:07:59,670 --> 01:07:56,079
special guest all the way from san diego

1819
01:08:02,069 --> 01:07:59,680
alex secaris skeptico podcast and why

1820
01:08:05,510 --> 01:08:02,079
science is wrong about almost everything

1821
01:08:06,950 --> 01:08:05,520
most provocative book among others

1822
01:08:08,789 --> 01:08:06,960
find him online

1823
01:08:11,589 --> 01:08:08,799
to learn more thank you so much for

1824
01:08:12,870 --> 01:08:11,599
watching for listening and remember v

1825
01:08:20,789 --> 01:08:12,880
for

1826
01:08:22,789 --> 01:08:20,799
having me on plan tv as i mentioned

1827
01:08:25,349 --> 01:08:22,799
i want to do more with these guys this

1828
01:08:27,430 --> 01:08:25,359
is such a great conversation

1829
01:08:30,470 --> 01:08:27,440
such a great dialogue so i already have

1830
01:08:31,669 --> 01:08:30,480
one interview scheduled with rob

1831
01:08:33,269 --> 01:08:31,679
and then

1832
01:08:36,870 --> 01:08:33,279
you know a couple other ones that we

1833
01:08:39,829 --> 01:08:36,880
talked about we might do jointly so

1834
01:08:42,550 --> 01:08:39,839
i i hope you're as excited about doing

1835
01:08:44,789 --> 01:08:42,560
that as i am let me know

1836
01:08:47,349 --> 01:08:44,799
reach me on the skeptical forum

1837
01:08:49,809 --> 01:08:47,359
until next time take care

1838
01:08:56,330 --> 01:08:49,819
and bye for now